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Chirurgo

CTLS landing for beginners

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I am a low hour CTLS pilot. I don't care if you landed your plane in the tundra with a 40nt. crosswind. I have no intention of going there so please don't put bragging stories up here. I would like to know if anyone

With the following Conditions

1. Never less than 3000 feet of runway

2. Never more than 7nts crosswind. Usually 3-4  Nts. or less

3. Never more than 15 nts. of wind of any kind

Questions

1. What is the "best "landing configuration 0 or 15 ,(I don't like 30 )and why

2.What speed do you like on final and at time of flare  with touchdown (Between numbers and 1000 fotters  as a goal) both with 0 and 15  

3. Does anyone regularly land with 0 flaps

4.  Would most folks land with 15 in these conditions. 

Thanks

 

 

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With those conditions 30*, closed throttle and stick full back is the 'best' configuration.  Its best because it leads to minimum speed / minimum risk landings.

Your conservative limitations are theoretical, once you are in the air you have to land even if the conditions take a turn for the worse.

PS One of the joys of owning a CT is the big view that you get on approach and landing. This and other advantages become available when you routinely do minimum speed approach / landings.

 

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They advise most new CT fliers to stay away from 30-40 flaps when learning. Normal for the large majority of the CT community under zero to light winds is 15 flaps. Get used to and good at landing before big flaps and slower speeds. More accidents have happened at 30-40 flaps than any other settings. The reason  for that is the slow speed, quicker loss of speed and when the plane slows it's done flying and you better be on the ground or close to it. Some worry about ground speed, ,don't. You're above their ground speed at take off going down the runway anyway and you mange that speed just fine so why worry on landing. Better to have nice landings than lose sleep over a few knots of speed on the ground.

When myself and some others transition new people we may also leave some rpm right down to touch to give good tail control and reduce sink rate. (2500-2700) we use rpm to touch many times in high winds for better tail and directional aircraft control.

 

You should stay away from what may be considered experienced skill set landings. Don't get over confident and just start with baby steps and work you way up to more advanc d skills.

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15 or 30 is fine, whatever you prefer.  Personally I don't like 0 flaps landings, they are significantly faster the necessary, and the airplane starts to sink out from under you at an abnormally high airspeed during approach.

If you don't like 30, you should be able to land in just about any conditions at 15 flaps.  I have not found a situation yet where I "needed" to use 0 flaps.

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Ed and Andy are offering their opinions on the CTSW. IMO, the CTLS is slightly different. Under the circumstances you describe I use and teach 15° flaps. Like Ed I also like to touch down with the stick back landing on the main gear, and holding the nose off. My normal approach is power to idle abeam the numbers, slow below 80, and go to 15° flaps, glide at 60. I tend to start my round out sooner than most describe to slow the airplane some before entering ground effect. my round out and flare is a very smooth some what slow transition. It has worked well for me and my students.

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Tom, it's true I fly a CTSW.  But can you tell me what part of what I said or what Ed said is *not* true for the CTLS as well?  I'm curious, since both my post and Ed's were pretty generic for all CT models, as far as I know.

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I agree the CTLS is slightly different. Its slightly different in a more stable less twitchy kind of way.

I see that Tom didn't say this difference leads to students landing with only minimal flaps. In fact this difference if anything would lead to using landing flaps because the typical concerns are diminished if anything.

The reason to take this incremental approach is to favor ease of learning (start with a landing where the pilot uses a minimum of input) over the law or rule of primacy.

The reason to favor landing flaps from day one is the law of primacy and less risk due to less energy.

 

PS.  The best reason to teach landing flaps from day one is preparation for when the poop hits the fan and the pilot has to use meaningful inputs to get a good outcome.  The favored 15* techniche does teach a 'do little/nothing' approach (pardon the pun).  I have had more than one landing that required dramatic inputs which are easier to come up with if you are routinely a more active participant.

Think about the hard landing that happens the first time the student experiences a rapid sink rate.  Its very easy to advance the throttle but I'm afraid we teach the pilots to observe the landings and that little participation is required.

PPS.  The reason many pilots land with their stick neutral is because they don't have to do anything.  Why should they it still works fine, right?

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1 hour ago, FlyingMonkey said:

Tom, it's true I fly a CTSW.  But can you tell me what part of what I said or what Ed said is *not* true for the CTLS as well?  I'm curious, since both my post and Ed's were pretty generic for all CT models, as far as I know.

Andy, You will have to excuse my post I didn't mean to imply that what you said was wrong, only that the CTLS and CTSW are slightly different. My family and myself live in a mobile home here on the airport. I made the post while rousted out of bed around 3:00AM for a severe thunderstorm warning, and we evacuated to the airport office which is more secure.

To the OP, between 0° and 15° I will always choose 15°.

 

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26 minutes ago, Ed Cesnalis said:

I agree the CTLS is slightly different. Its slightly different in a more stable less twitchy kind of way.

I see that Tom didn't say this difference leads to students landing with only minimal flaps. In fact this difference if anything would lead to using landing flaps because the typical concerns are diminished if anything.

The reason to take this incremental approach is to favor ease of learning (start with a landing where the pilot uses a minimum of input) over the law or rule of primacy.

The reason to favor landing flaps from day one is the law of primacy and less risk due to less energy.

Ed, The CTLS flies more like a traditional airplane in pitch that the SW. When taking off with flap it doesn't have the same feel of levitation as the SW. You actually have to rotate and pitch for the climb. The unfortunate thing is when they made the changes to the LS they didn't fix the problem that leads to landing incidents.

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19 minutes ago, Tom Baker said:

Ed, The CTLS flies more like a traditional airplane in pitch that the SW. When taking off with flap it doesn't have the same feel of levitation as the SW. You actually have to rotate and pitch for the climb. The unfortunate thing is when they made the changes to the LS they didn't fix the problem that leads to landing incidents.

Tom,

The takeoff seems to 'normalize' due to the stretch I think. In either case you pitch for the result so even if the SW feels more like levitation it doesn't change your inputs.

Its interesting to hear you say that the CTSW and CTLS have a problem that leads to landing incidents. I not only disagree but blame the teaching of flat fast approach and landings that are supposed to somehow compensate for a perceived design problem.

I saw the initial incidents in 2006. There were a number of them and poor 'very light aircraft' landing technique was to blame in each case that we looked at.  In 2005 and early 2006 the need for effective transition training wasn't recognized and then it took some time figure out how to alter the transition training. 

Things changed and the issue now is training not transition training.

I think you have said the 'problem' with the design is that the flaperons continue to droop beyond the 15* position?  Is this correct and how do you alter training to deal with this design problem?

Best,

Ed Cesnalis - Mammoth Lakes, CA

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48 minutes ago, Tom Baker said:

Andy, You will have to excuse my post I didn't mean to imply that what you said was wrong, only that the CTLS and CTSW are slightly different. My family and myself live in a mobile home here on the airport. I made the post while rousted out of bed around 3:00AM for a severe thunderstorm warning, and we evacuated to the airport office which is more secure.

To the OP, between 0° and 15° I will always choose 15°.

 

I didn't take any offense, I was just wondering if there was something that didn't apply in what I said.  BTW, I totally agree with your last line, I will always choose 15 over 0 also.  I find 0 less stable and harder to land than 30, probably because I don't want to land it as fast as required at 0.

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42 minutes ago, Ed Cesnalis said:

Tom,

The takeoff seems to 'normalize' due to the stretch I think. In either case you pitch for the result so even if the SW feels more like levitation it doesn't change your inputs.

I think you have said the 'problem' with the design is that the flaperons continue to droop beyond the 15* position?  Is this correct and how do you alter training to deal with this design problem?

Best,

Ed Cesnalis - Mammoth Lakes, CA

Ed, from what I remember the SW with 15° flaps for take off lifts off the ground on its own and climbs in a fairly flat attitude. The LS will tend to stay stuck to the ground and requires what appears to be a higher pitch angle.

You are correct that I think the flaperon design is a poor design trait. As for training it is simple I teach what the CTLS AOI says. 30° or 35° flaps for very short runways only under ideal conditions, and no crosswind component. 15° flaps will work for most landing conditions.

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2 minutes ago, Tom Baker said:

Ed, ...

You are correct that I think the flaperon design is a poor design trait. As for training it is simple I teach what the CTLS AOI says. 30° or 35° flaps for very short runways only under ideal conditions, and no crosswind component. 15° flaps will work for most landing conditions.

I now see the LS AOI and the current pilot community consensus are on the same page. Not just CT or even light sport but today's pilots in general are far more prone to see routinely landing faster than minimum speed as an acceptable option. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After 11 years of CT flying out of a high DA / high wind shear location I have had wings drop in the landing sequence that required input to result in a good landing and remain in control a number of times. I could blame the flaperon droop but my other planes had the same issues and the Skyhawk and Cherokee didn't have flaperons.  In my CT I have experienced a wing drop even with 15 or zero flaps so again it's hard for me to blame the flaperons.

When a CT's wing drops in a gusty crosswind landing the correct input is opposite rudder, it will soften the contact, prevent damage and allow you to control a pivot to track straight down the runway. Droop is not to blame here if it were when the wing dropped the correct input would be for the pilot to counter with flaperon and the droop would prevent it from being effective and damage would result.

I suggest these incidents are about the student pilots not knowing how to use their feet when a wing stops flying due to a gust. How can we expect the flaperon to work if the wing is in the process of 'rapidly quitting flying'?  When we counter a wing drop with rudder we give up our alignment in order to increase the amount of airflow on our stalling wing. Same thing would have to be a go-around for a tail dragger where you are dependant on alignment. As long as its upwind wheel first our CTs will pivot nicely when landing cocked due to a dropping wing.

When the crosswind is strong I crab my CT because the downwind wing gets too mushy. If the flaperons play a part in that feel it doesn't matter I will keep my nose into the wind enough to have good control.

 

my 2cents - i'm old and will never change :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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This has turned into exactly what I wanted to avoid arguing about angels on a pin head and attempting to show who knows the most. I was really looking for a spectrum of opinions for beginners not salty dog stories Tom thanks for your personal teaching techniques. Would like to hear some other basic options. I don't own a CTSW and I do understand that they are more squirrelly 

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On 18/06/2017 at 7:36 AM, Chirurgo said:

I am a low hour CTLS pilot. I don't care if you landed your plane in the tundra with a 40nt. crosswind. I have no intention of going there so please don't put bragging stories up here. I would like to know if anyone

With the following Conditions

1. Never less than 3000 feet of runway

2. Never more than 7nts crosswind. Usually 3-4  Nts. or less

3. Never more than 15 nts. of wind of any kind

Questions

1. What is the "best "landing configuration 0 or 15 ,(I don't like 30 )and why

2.What speed do you like on final and at time of flare  with touchdown (Between numbers and 1000 fotters  as a goal) both with 0 and 15  

3. Does anyone regularly land with 0 flaps

4.  Would most folks land with 15 in these conditions. 

Thanks

 

 

I have now got 300 plus hours up in CTLS and fly mostly in the condition you describe and fly exactly as what Tom suggested 

The only time I would use 30 flaps is when I'm coming in a bit high and need to loose altitude or on short field landing

Zero flaps only with high crosswind and always come in at 60 knots  it has worked so far for me and it is something I picked up from this forum

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On 6/18/2017 at 7:36 AM, Chirurgo said:

2.What speed do you like on final and at time of flare  with touchdown (Between numbers and 1000 fotters  as a goal) both with 0 and 15

50kts@30'     60kts@15'    70kts@0'       Works for me on finals (maybe add a few kts if its gusty).  Probably not a good idea to be checking ASI on the flare/touchdown, just keep holding off & aligned until you touchdown..

Ed makes good points though about landing at minimum speeds. I prefer 30' now if conditions are light & glad to have practiced them before I went landing at short strips. 

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3 hours ago, Chirurgo said:

This has turned into exactly what I wanted to avoid arguing about angels on a pin head and attempting to show who knows the most. I was really looking for a spectrum of opinions for beginners not salty dog stories Tom thanks for your personal teaching techniques. Would like to hear some other basic options. I don't own a CTSW and I do understand that they are more squirrelly 

Your subject is the best landing configuration for beginners and related factors like approach speed and more flap choice considerations.

'Best' in most minds, in this day means easiest. The opposing choice would be safest.

You seem to be open to only answers that require zero precision and minimal skill and input on the part of the pilot.

Its a valid argument / discussion. If the only answer you are open to is to avoid using your flaps even though you only fly in calm conditions then the question has little point other than to confirm your existing bias.

There is an important relationship between speed and safety here and the question of how much margin over stall is useful and at what point does extra margin become a negative. The long standing margin is 30% or 1.3 x stall speed or 52kts for a CT.  60kts is a 54% margin.

If your margin is too little (speed too slow) then you risk losing lift due to gusts from the wrong direction. If your margin is too much (speed too high) then you risk, especially as a beginner, damage resulting from pilot induced oscillation. Excess speed also increases damage and injury when a mishap occurs.

The picture painted on this forum that faster and reduced flaps is easier and therefore safer misses the point that the correct speed is safest.

The assumption here that faster is better is easily sold when you control the conversation and only want to hear points supporting your preconception.

 

PS  Landing fast and then getting gusted on rollout when you're slow to the point where you no longer have the control authority to counter the gust is the worst cases scenario where the extra speed backfires on you.  On the same day a slower approach would likely show you that you lack control at slow speeds and allow you to choose another runway or another time while you are still in the air and still able to abort without incident.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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The take away here is to start with the easiest to learn setup. Then progress into ALL flap and speed configurations. Never allow yourself to be a ridged thinker. 

You see by the post that there are many ways to land. Practice them all after you learned and are proficient  with the most common and easiest.

As you progress you will see that some here like lots of flaps all the time and slow speeds. Some use all flap settings at different times and don't worry about a few knots of speed. It all works and has been for 13-14 years. There are more than 1800 CT's worldwide and 365 or so in the US.

They all have their opinions and likes and dislikes.

From reading all the likes and dislikes it should be obvious that there is NO ONE WAY, but a range of speeds and flaps.

 

llearn and practice them all to put in your mental toolbox.

The pilot that only knows 1-2 ways  shorts himself because when the crap hits the fan it is usually anything, but 1 way. Learning more than one way will also serve you well in really high winds at 30+. Learning 1-2 ways will just get you in trouble.

The CT will land in any configuration. I always practiced in all flaps, at different speeds, different rpms and with no engine at all.

Learn it all then anything is normal and nothing will throw you a curve.

 

 

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13 hours ago, Ed Cesnalis said:

I now see the LS AOI and the current pilot community consensus are on the same page. Not just CT or even light sport but today's pilots in general are far more prone to see routinely landing faster than minimum speed as an acceptable option. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After 11 years of CT flying out of a high DA / high wind shear location I have had wings drop in the landing sequence that required input to result in a good landing and remain in control a number of times. I could blame the flaperon droop but my other planes had the same issues and the Skyhawk and Cherokee didn't have flaperons.  In my CT I have experienced a wing drop even with 15 or zero flaps so again it's hard for me to blame the flaperons.

my 2cents - i'm old and will never change :)

I didn't mean to imply that a wing drop couldn't happen in other aircraft, only that the flaperons make it more likely to happen under the right conditions. As for correcting with rudder you are correct, but if the drop comes abruptly a few feet above the ground the reaction time normally will not be quick enough to save the airplane.

It is fine that you are old and won't change. If it works for that is great. I post for the others who might not have your skill set to make approaches and landings the way you do. In reality what I teach and what you do are not that far apart. The primary difference is the flap setting. I also go to idle abeam the numbers, and try to touch down at the slowest speed for the flap setting I use. For the CT, I feel the risk of 2-3 extra knots of speed out weigh the advantages of more flaps under most circumstances. I do use full flaps in most of the other airplane that I fly on a regular basis.

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0 and 15 flap landings are a great way to start.  60kts is a good speed on approach for 15 flaps and slowing to around 55kts over the threshold of the runway.  Touchdown speed should be near stall as a goal though it takes patience and slow addition of "back stick" to get there.  Most touchdown a little fast because it does take patience to bleed the speed to that nose high touchdown without ballooning.  15 flaps can be used comfortably with steady headwinds and crosswinds of up to 10kts (higher as you gain experience and confidence). With higher crosswinds and gusty/thermal conditions 0 flap landings are a good option. A 65-70 kt approach speed works well, it is possible to touch the ventral fin with 0 flap landings and high pitch attitudes near stall on touchdown so you don't want to get to deep into the pitch on these landings but still strive to touchdown near minimum speed.  

Once you are comfortable with these approach's and landings move to 30 flap in calm benign conditions with a 50kt approach speed.  They are not all that different but are easy to balloon during the initial round out, once you balloon speed drops rapidly so they can lead to firm landings if power isn't added after a balloon.  

 

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"0 and 15 flap landings are a great way to start.  60kts is a good speed on approach for 15 flaps and slowing to around 55kts over the threshold of the runway.  Touchdown speed should be near stall as a goal though it takes patience and slow addition of "back stick" to get there.  Most touchdown a little fast because it does take patience to bleed the speed to that nose high touchdown without ballooning.  15 flaps can be used comfortably with steady headwinds and crosswinds of up to 10kts (higher as you gain experience and confidence). With higher crosswinds and gusty/thermal conditions 0 flap landings are a good option. A 65-70 kt approach speed works well, it is possible to touch the ventral fin with 0 flap landings and high pitch attitudes near stall on touchdown so you don't want to get to deep into the pitch on these landings but still strive to touchdown near minimum speed.  

Once you are comfortable with these approach's and landings move to 30 flap in calm benign conditions with a 50kt approach speed.  They are not all that different but are easy to balloon during the initial round out, once you balloon speed drops rapidly so they can lead to firm landings if power isn't added after a balloon. "

This is precisely my technique. It works like a charm.

Cheers

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27 minutes ago, Tom Baker said:

I didn't mean to imply that a wing drop couldn't happen in other aircraft, only that the flaperons make it more likely to happen under the right conditions. As for correcting with rudder you are correct, but if the drop comes abruptly a few feet above the ground the reaction time normally will not be quick enough to save the airplane.

It is fine that you are old and won't change. If it works for that is great. I post for the others who might not have your skill set to make approaches and landings the way you do. In reality what I teach and what you do are not that far apart. The primary difference is the flap setting. I also go to idle abeam the numbers, and try to touch down at the slowest speed for the flap setting I use. For the CT, I feel the risk of 2-3 extra knots of speed out weigh the advantages of more flaps under most circumstances. I do use full flaps in most of the other airplane that I fly on a regular basis.

No matter what configuration or speed if you get your stick full aft at or before contact  you are landing at minimum speed for that configuration.  This is the most important point and on it we are in agreement.

We disagree on saving the gear/landing. A small amount of training to 'fly with your feet' can make this save completely intuitive and instinctive. 

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31 minutes ago, coppercity said:

0 and 15 flap landings are a great way to start.  60kts is a good speed on approach for 15 flaps and slowing to around 55kts over the threshold of the runway.  Touchdown speed should be near stall as a goal though it takes patience and slow addition of "back stick" to get there.  Most touchdown a little fast because it does take patience to bleed the speed to that nose high touchdown without ballooning.  15 flaps can be used comfortably with steady headwinds and crosswinds of up to 10kts (higher as you gain experience and confidence). With higher crosswinds and gusty/thermal conditions 0 flap landings are a good option. A 65-70 kt approach speed works well, it is possible to touch the ventral fin with 0 flap landings and high pitch attitudes near stall on touchdown so you don't want to get to deep into the pitch on these landings but still strive to touchdown near minimum speed.  

Once you are comfortable with these approach's and landings move to 30 flap in calm benign conditions with a 50kt approach speed.  They are not all that different but are easy to balloon during the initial round out, once you balloon speed drops rapidly so they can lead to firm landings if power isn't added after a balloon.  

 

95% of the time advancing the throttle saves the gear from the firm contact.  When 1 wing drops rudder is as or more important than throttle.  Avoiding the throttle to practice for dead sticks is a good idea too.

The only problem I have with your method is that it subliminally teaches fear of flaps first instead of teaching love of flaps first and the rule of primacy tends to win out when the chips are down.

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57 minutes ago, Ed Cesnalis said:

No matter what configuration or speed if you get your stick full aft at or before contact  you are landing at minimum speed for that configuration.  This is the most important point and on it we are in agreement.

We disagree on saving the gear/landing. A small amount of training to 'fly with your feet' can make this save completely intuitive and instinctive. 

I agree on teaching rudder use. I have thousands of hours in airplanes where rudder coordination is paramount. When teaching someone new I teach rudder use, but when teaching landings I also teach to avoid bad situations if possible.

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1 hour ago, Tom Baker said:

...  when teaching landings I also teach to avoid bad situations ...

that's quite a rub.  hard to learn to swim well if you get through the training without getting in the deep end of the pool.

teaching spin recovery and landing in marginal conditions does present additional risk to the flight school  and the trends are to avoid such risks.

I never had flight training coming from a part 103 world but I saw a lot of it take place.  I remember friends having lessons scheduled for afternoon winds as well as getting spin training and canyon exit training.  In the 70s and 80s these things were still routine.

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