CTLS landing for beginners

[Tom Baker]

1 hour ago, Ed Cesnalis said:

that's quite a rub.  hard to learn to swim well if you get through the training without getting in the deep end of the pool.

By the same token it is a bad idea to throw someone into the deep end of the pool before they have the training needed to be there.

[Roger Lee]

I agree with Eric (Coppercity). He has more time training in a CTSW and CTLS than most in the US, over 2000 hrs. and he produces good students and pilots.

 Start with easier situations and work your way up. Several CT's have been crushed by high time pilots jumping into a CT and trying to take on too much, think they are a toy or want full flap and stall speed first flights.

Tom also said to avoid bad situations. This can included too advanced high coordinated landings and or weather.

 

you have nothing to lose and everything to gain by taking your time.

[Ed Cesnalis]

1 hour ago, Roger Lee said:

... This can included too advanced high coordinated landings and or weather.

you have nothing to lose and everything to gain by taking your time.

Here's a big picture observation. Given 'easy first' and avoiding advanced training today's CT pilots are awarded with a license to learn as opposed to a complete education.

2 ways that can go. 1 type will seek out additional skills, training, etc but most will simply begin flying from a to b and their training is mostly behind them. Flying from a to b in the real world will eventually challenge any pilot. 

Spin recovery, canyon exits, landing with higher than normal winds / shear, and even minimum speed landings are all skills that were included in the package decades ago but not today.  Sign of the times

[Chirurgo]

Thanks folks.  This is what I was looking for. My training is proceeding well but one problem that I have is that my main instructor ,though good ex Air Force jockey , have no real experience with my aircraft. Most of you started with a GA training and plane and transitioned over to light sport. The comments are appreciated and EVENTUALLY I plan to try all configurations but for now I'm looking for a little more consistency. 

Thanks all

[frfly172]

I have a liberty XL 2 flys like a light sport,I hold an atp rating. The Ct is just not a little 172, take your time and learn the difference, the more you practice the better you get,not all CFIs are ready to instruct in an Lsa.

[FlyingMonkey]

5 minutes ago, frfly172 said:

I have a liberty XL 2 flys like a light sport,I hold an atp rating. The Ct is just not a little 172, take your time and learn the difference, the more you practice the better you get,not all CFIs are ready to instruct in an Lsa.

Great advice, there is much truth and wisdom there.  Many have come to regret thinking LSA fly the same as other, heavier airplanes.  Definitely work your limits up slowly.

I don't think I flew my CTSW in more than 8kt of wind the first year, now a few years later my (inadvertent) record is 24G32 and I have not bent anything yet.

[WmInce]

4 hours ago, FlyingMonkey said:

. . . "my (inadvertent) record is 24G32 and I have not bent anything yet." . . . 

Beaumont, Texas? . . . . 

[FlyingMonkey]

9 hours ago, WmInce said:

Beaumont, Texas? . . . . 

That's the one!  I even have you as a witness.  And we only picked that airport because the wind was down the runway.  

[TN8S]

I'm having trouble with the sight picture getting the CTSW on the ground. It looks like I am pointed 20-25 degrees to the right before touchdown. My instructor says I am centered. Also looks like I am way right.It appears if I put it down we will go straight right when the wheels touch. Not having problems hitting my touchdown point but that "crossed" look does not feel good to me. Any suggestions will help. Many thanks.

 

Tim

Hollywood, SC

[Mike Koerner]

Tim,

Try this:

Push the plane onto a taxiway so its lined up with and on the center line. Get in and position yourself so you are sitting normally in the pilot seat. Find the spot on the windshield which, from your eye position, lines up with the point where the center line would meet the horizon. Put a small piece of colored masking tape on the inside of the windshield at that position.

The next time land, during your flair, try to keep that piece of tape just above the the far end of the runway. You'll be lined straight and at a reasonable attitude as well.

Mike Koerner

[coppercity]

7 hours ago, TN8S said:

I'm having trouble with the sight picture getting the CTSW on the ground. It looks like I am pointed 20-25 degrees to the right before touchdown. My instructor says I am centered. Also looks like I am way right.It appears if I put it down we will go straight right when the wheels touch. Not having problems hitting my touchdown point but that "crossed" look does not feel good to me. Any suggestions will help. Many thanks.

 

Tim

Hollywood, SC

Tim,

It is a very common perception in CT's as we tend to look right towards the center of the plane and try to line up the centerline along that line leading to the nose pointed left.   The centerline should follow your legs forward and should be under your right leg.  It will appear as if the nose is way right of centerline but its straight.

[FlyingMonkey]

I usually align the centerline with my right knee and it works pretty well.

[Ed Cesnalis]

If your in the stage where you generally walk on, meaning 1 main 1st followed by the other a fraction of a second later, make sure you listen for the sound of the mains.  The 1-2 pattern is something that will bugged me and I think listening for it made me learn where strait is and made it go away.  

There is no cowling to see so its natural to struggle with this.

[FlyingMonkey]

On 11/4/2017 at 2:46 PM, Ed Cesnalis said:

If your in the stage where you generally walk on, meaning 1 main 1st followed by the other a fraction of a second later, make sure you listen for the sound of the mains.  The 1-2 pattern is something that will bugged me and I think listening for it made me learn where strait is and made it go away.  

There is no cowling to see so its natural to struggle with this.

Isn't the 1-2 chirp more a function of crosswind correction than runway alignment?  In calm winds, my wheels touch town simultaneously, in a crosswind the upwind tire will touch down first.  You can have terrible alignment and still hit both mains at the same time, and vice versa.  I don't think I'd advocate "doing away with the 1-2 chirp", as sometimes it is absolutely critical to a well aligned touchdown.  If your wheels touchdown at the same time in a decent crosswind, you are going to be side-loaded and/or heading off the runway.

Or am I misunderstanding what you are saying? 

[Ed Cesnalis]

6 hours ago, FlyingMonkey said:

Isn't the 1-2 chirp more a function of crosswind correction than runway alignment?  In calm winds, my wheels touch town simultaneously, in a crosswind the upwind tire will touch down first.  You can have terrible alignment and still hit both mains at the same time, and vice versa.  I don't think I'd advocate "doing away with the 1-2 chirp", as sometimes it is absolutely critical to a well aligned touchdown.  If your wheels touchdown at the same time in a decent crosswind, you are going to be side-loaded and/or heading off the runway.

Or am I misunderstanding what you are saying? 

This thinking is best applied in calm winds.

The 1-2 of a crooked but 2-wheel touchdown is prolly going to chirp where the aligned 1 at a time crosswind touch down not so much and different timing on the 1 pause 2.

If your landing crooked listen for it, you can recognize it.

[Buckaroo]

I’ve had my CTSW a year now with 100 hours. Personally for me I love zero flaps. The landing approach is a little hotter say 65 short final then I’m off the AS indicator rounding out and enjoying a squeaker landing almost every time. Of course I always wanted to fly jets!??

[Doug G.]

On 11/9/2017 at 5:12 PM, Buckaroo said:

I’ve had my CTSW a year now with 100 hours. Personally for me I love zero flaps. The landing approach is a little hotter say 65 short final then I’m off the AS indicator rounding out and enjoying a squeaker landing almost every time. Of course I always wanted to fly jets!??

I used 0° for a long time but challenged myself to start using 15° first when it was fairly calm and now use it the except in stiff crosswinds. Now I am working on full flaps in calm conditions. The slower speeds mean less wear on tires and brakes and a bit more control once the nose wheel is down and, of course, it is very helpful and sometimes necessary for short field. I would encourage you to work at all configurations.

Slightly different note - there have been a couple of in air fires (not FD) in the area so at my last BFR the CFI showed me a 45° spiraling dive that brought us down at near Vne and over 2500 fpm without exceeding legal angles. He said it is taught to airline pilots. I should add that it was a calm and smooth day. Interesting and fun stuff.

 

 

[Buckaroo]

2 minutes ago, Doug G. said:

I used 0° for a long time but challenged myself to start using 15° first when it was fairly calm and now use it the except in stiff crosswinds. Now I am working on full flaps in calm conditions. The slower speeds mean less wear on tires and brakes and a bit more control once the nose wheel is down and, of course, it is very helpful and sometimes necessary for short field. I would encourage you to work at all configurations.

Slightly different note - there have been a couple of in air fires (not FD) in the area so at my last BFR the CFI showed me a 45° spiraling dive that brought us down at near Vne and over 2500 fpm without exceeding legal angles. He said it is taught to airline pilots. I should add that it was a calm and smooth day. Interesting and fun stuff.

 

 

I agree that landing in all configurations is smart and prudent! For me I need the fastest configuration to be fun! Full and slow and steep approaches are kind of boaring and large angled round outs are well ok boring! 

[Buckaroo]

Doug you are correct tho it’s best to be competent in all flying configurations. I used to land my 182 on a dime. I haven’t yet explored the full flap minimums on short final yet. This is work I plan on doing in the future.

[Runtoeat]

Buckaroo, If you're landing with 0 flaps, you are at maybe 70kts during your final approach and your touch down is probably around 65 to 70kts IAS?  If your airfield is at a higher elevation you might have a significantly higher ground speed than your IAS.  I'm thinking that may be going pretty fast over the ground when you touch down.  You might like the lower landing speeds which more flaps provide.

[Buckaroo]

1 hour ago, Runtoeat said:

Buckaroo, If you're landing with 0 flaps, you are at maybe 70kts during your final approach and your touch down is probably around 65 to 70kts IAS?  If your airfield is at a higher elevation you might have a significantly higher ground speed than your IAS.  I'm thinking that may be going pretty fast over the ground when you touch down.  You might like the lower landing speeds which more flaps provide.

You are correct, but for me airspeed is my friend! In my flying career I’ve always loved airspeed so much than when I takeoff I always lower my nose and gather as much speed especially in ground effect to gather as much speed as possible before climbing at VY! For me flaps are a wonderful hedge against stalls but with a healthy engine and strong control responses due to enough relatitive wind pressures speed is your friend. 

On final with full flaps and low speeds you are opening the door for a loss of control beyond your ability to respond! 

Fast over the ground equals lift and lift can be your friend! 

[Ed Cesnalis]

2 hours ago, Buckaroo said:

On final with full flaps and low speeds you are opening the door for a loss of control beyond your ability to respond! 

Fast over the ground equals lift and lift can be your friend! 

Have to disagree on both counts.

#1 extra speed / clean config sets me up for a loss of control for which I have no response.  I can't envision what you are saying, can you elaborate?

#2 speed over the ground means nothing (not the same thing as wind flowing over your wings)

[Runtoeat]

Buckaroo, I'm on record as being a "full flaps" pilot.  I understand that you've landed your 182 Cessna in a particular way in the past.  Regarding landing the Flight Design with 0 flaps, I'm getting a picture in my mind of going extremely fast and my CT not wanting to come down with the end of the runway fast approaching when I read your comments about carrying the speed you do.  Then, a sudden gust of wind pops up and my CT balloons up off the runway and it's "go 'round time".  I do landings with all flap settings to understand my airplane but mostly all landings I do are with full flaps and are hi drag and slow with good control.  As for taking off, I do keep the nose down until reaching the appropriate speeds for climb from the runway.  The majority here probably use 15 and some use 0 flaps for landing.  There is no "right or wrong" and everyone has their own methods.  My hope is that you continue to have safe flights.

[Ed Cesnalis]

7 hours ago, JohnnyBlackCT said:

The higher stall speed and landing speed with less flaps uses more runway and means you will start "driving" instead of flying at a higher ground speed.  This can create an unsafe situation. 

No kidding.  Driving with that extra speed is when you can get gusted with something beyond your control authority where the same gust with you still flying and you can simply go around.

Getting your wheels on the runway above stall speed is when you set yourself up for things that you potentially cannot control / recover from.

[Ed Cesnalis]

I used to go through the Aero Trainer (tires) on my CT every year and a half

After all the discussions about landing at minimum speed my technique became slower yet, always stick full aft, always landing flaps (30*).

My tires stopped wearing out.  I do like the look of the Aero Trainers best on my plane.