CTLS landing for beginners

[Buckaroo]

14 hours ago, Runtoeat said:

Buckaroo, If you're landing with 0 flaps, you are at maybe 70kts during your final approach and your touch down is probably around 65 to 70kts IAS?  If your airfield is at a higher elevation you might have a significantly higher ground speed than your IAS.  I'm thinking that may be going pretty fast over the ground when you touch down.  You might like the lower landing speeds which more flaps provide.

You are correct, but for me airspeed is my friend! In my flying career I’ve always loved airspeed so much than when I takeoff I always lower my nose and gather as much speed especially in ground effect to gather as much speed as possible before climbing at VY! For me flaps are a wonderful hedge against stalls but with a healthy engine and strong control responses due to enough relatitive wind pressures speed is your friend. 

On final with full flaps and low speeds you are opening the door for a loss of control beyond your ability to respond! 

Fast over the ground equals lift and lift can be your friend! 

[Buckaroo]

I think speed wise we’re all landing at the same speed with exception of flap speeds at touch down. When I land I’m at full nose high stall speed with usually zero flaps. I milk all the flying speed out of the plane with a nose high attitude.  There’s no unusual tire wear or scary ground speeds. 

You’re doing the same thing only with flaps which in turn lowers the touch down speed somewhat. I guess the next question is who has more control in the event of a last second problem like wind gust, dust devil, deer on runway etc. Now it’s raw physics that every mph of speed can increase the result negatively in a bad situation. For me I feel more control of the airplane with zero or 15 degrees of flaps. With full flaps I feel lots off pitch stick pressures, lots of pitch change at round out, low and clumsy go around possibilities with lots of drag, more pilot actions at go around. For me Airplane attitude and control override the benefit of landing a few knots slower! 

Now my Alfalfa field landing I used full flaps as I realized that forward energy must be at a minimum in case I would hit a rock, fence or flip on its back. 

[Flying Bozo]

CTSW...some feedback on this flap issue by the community would be appreciated. Has anyone noticed that at 30 flap setting on landing it is infinitely easier to keep the nose wheel from slamming down compared to 15 degrees of flap? I realize that this outcome is contrary to logic of what the flaps do and the speed difference at touch down but nevertheless that is the conclusion that I have come to.  I can keep the nose gear off the ground for a significantly longer time during rollout also. So lets hear the opinions on this because as I said this appears to be contrary to the logic of what is happening.

Larry

[Ed Cesnalis]

2 hours ago, Flying Bozo said:

Has anyone noticed that at 30 flap setting on landing it is infinitely easier to keep the nose wheel from slamming down compared to 15 degrees of flap? 

I always use 30 degrees and my nose wheel never slams down.  I do tend to touch down with a full aft stick and keep it there till it settles on its on.  

The balance on the my mains is good in that my nose wheel stays up a while providing some aerodynamic braking.  

Does your 'slamming down' change if loaded with an aft CG?

[Ed Cesnalis]

3 hours ago, Buckaroo said:

I think speed wise we’re all landing at the same speed with exception of flap speeds at touch down. When I land I’m at full nose high stall speed with usually zero flaps. I milk all the flying speed out of the plane with a nose high attitude.  There’s no unusual tire wear or scary ground speeds. 

You’re doing the same thing only with flaps which in turn lowers the touch down speed somewhat. I guess the next question is who has more control in the event of a last second problem like wind gust, dust devil, deer on runway etc. Now it’s raw physics that every mph of speed can increase the result negatively in a bad situation. For me I feel more control of the airplane with zero or 15 degrees of flaps. With full flaps I feel lots off pitch stick pressures, lots of pitch change at round out, low and clumsy go around possibilities with lots of drag, more pilot actions at go around. For me Airplane attitude and control override the benefit of landing a few knots slower! 

Now my Alfalfa field landing I used full flaps as I realized that forward energy must be at a minimum in case I would hit a rock, fence or flip on its back. 

On one hand you argue that you are getting down to the same speed but on the other hand you argue more control authority, it can't be both, you have to slow to a vulnerable speed at some point.

You are keying on flap setting where I am keying on touchdown speed.  Regardless of flap setting if you touch down above stall and then get gusted you have the worst case that I'm avoiding.

[Ed Cesnalis]

28 minutes ago, JohnnyBlackCT said:

...Suppose I am flying an airplane with a stall speed of 40 knots with full flaps and 50 knots with zero flaps.  I am landing with a 20 knot crosswind.  I would probably land with zero flaps because at 51 knots I may be able to keep the airplane on the centerline with a wing down into the wind.  At 41 knots, I might get blown off the runway by the 20 knot crosswind...

Aren't you risking that the 20 knot crosswind will still be there when you slow thru 41 knots?  

When the crosswind component is too great to hold a correction on approach without extra speed things might get worse when you get your main gear on the runway.  You can likely avoid this window by staying on one wheel as long as possible.

 

[Ed Cesnalis]

21 minutes ago, JohnnyBlackCT said:

Yes, but I'm firmly on the ground at that point. 

the best you can do to avoid being gusted sideways once your on the ground is to land at minimum speed.  If you land faster you have to slow thru that speed and if you do it on the ground you are more vulnerable than if you are still in the air.

you seem to argue that you get the benefits of being both fast and slow.

[Farmer]

 Please come play in my sandbox.  I am in the process of helping  my son, who is a Cessna pilot For many years, flying every week inter island. in a near new 172,  transition to the Ctls N413F.   Yesterday we were out flying in 26 gusting 32 so you’ll begin flying the aircraft  as soon as you open the hangar door..  Yesterday’s flight was landings in  -6 to + 35 flaps you might as well Try it all so you know what to expect.   We’ve had a strip of tape on the windscreen for the last month during this training and that helps a lot for the site picture.

 We were landing on 4L and the winds were 345.   Needless to say we were the only one out training in those conditions at three in the afternoon .   The goal is to do touch and go without ever letting the nosewheel touch the runway .    We were successful in all but one landing of keeping the nose wheel off the pavement .  I’m not suggesting anybody do this or that it is even the right thing to do however I treat the centerline of the runway merely  as a suggestion .   Rather than flying the centerline we focus on the Windsock and do our final approach diagonally across the runway  focusing on that windsock . Close to the ground just before  touchdown it’s indicating about 40 and although you’re not really looking inside the cockpit groundspeed is under 20. You don’t care about the wind speed you only care is the gust differential speed.   You can find yourself  making several power adjustments to keep the wings level and the nose very up attitude.  As odd as it sounds this can be very smooth landing’s . 

These flight design aircraft are incredible machines and I would like to go someday and watch a real pilot put it through the paces 

 There is no perfect way to fly these aircraft however really “ please come play in my sandbox anytime .”

 

farmer

 

 

[Ed Cesnalis]

This is a landing for beginners thread so to be clear the 2 concepts are mutually exclusive.

• Most CT pilots do land fast with minimized flaps for that crisp response from their control inputs.
• A few land with flaps and touchdown at minimum speed which does plant you on the runway.

 

[andyb]

On ‎6‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 4:00 AM, Tom Baker said:

Ed and Andy are offering their opinions on the CTSW. IMO, the CTLS is slightly different. Under the circumstances you describe I use and teach 15° flaps. Like Ed I also like to touch down with the stick back landing on the main gear, and holding the nose off. My normal approach is power to idle abeam the numbers, slow below 80, and go to 15° flaps, glide at 60. I tend to start my round out sooner than most describe to slow the airplane some before entering ground effect. my round out and flare is a very smooth some what slow transition. It has worked well for me and my students.

Last year, when I was dropping my plane off with Tom for an annual, I did some dual time with Tom, focusing on landings.  With about 2,100 hours on the Cirrus, and about 100 on the CTLS, the instruction was very helpful.  A couple of observations, relevant to this thread...

• It was very windy (12 kts crosswind, with gusts), and Tom had me do 15 degrees flaps.  I had always used 0 degrees in these conditions.  While the conditions made the landings very challenging, I didn't note any increase in difficulty associated with 15 degrees.
• I had always previously reduced the throttle to 2,800 RPM and introduced 15 degrees of flaps when abeam.  So to me, it begged the question of how it could still maintain 60 kts or so with idle power, when I had the same result with 2,800 RPM.  Tom demonstrated this to me, and it in fact worked very well when he did it, even in challenging conditions.  Of course, this necessitated a considerably tighter pattern than I was flying, which probably is a good thing.  My conclusion was that I wanted to be proficient in doing the approach both with idle power as Tom taught (good for smaller, uncontrolled airports) as well with 2,800 RPM, as my home field is a busy Class D and typically they require a bigger pattern.
• I'm a pretty experienced pilot, with instrument and commercial ratings.  Notwithstanding this, spending time with an instructor with strong experience in the CT was hugely helpful.  The CTLSi and Cirrus are very different in how they fly, and there's considerable learning and un-learning involved in making the transition.

Andy

[Runtoeat]

FWIW, I was trained to use full flaps under even high cross wind conditions and I use full flaps for all landings.  My instructor started out flying in a Aeronca Champ at age 15 , he has over 4,000 hours in rotary, he trained and flew in the army (Cobra gunships), flew in the Coast Guard and retired after flying commercial jets for a well known company.  I'm just trying to give some background of the person who I fly with often and who trains me each time we fly together.  I believe I am probably one of the most fortunate people to have #1 bought a CTSW and #2 have been introduced to flying techniques probably not many other FD owners have been shown.  I personally feel that the Flight Design has adequate rudder authority to control  the plane up to my personal limit of 25 kt cross wind.  It has ability to provide authority for higher but this is my limit.  Yes, it takes a low wing approach to the runway or a crabbed approach, but this can safely be accomplished PROVIDED THE PILOT HAS HAD GOOD TRAINING!   For the non trained pilot, I recommend doing whatever you are comfortable with but please consider looking into the full flap landing technique to have this in your bag of abilities.  This plants you on the runway and eliminates ballooning.  It also is easier to keep an attitude which prevents tail dragging that can occur during low flap landings.  The 2006 CTSW had the vertical tail and rudder enlarged to provide increased rudder authority specifically for the purpose of landing in cross winds.  The FD has adequate power to lift the plane up and away from the runway with full flaps, should the timing and attitude not be correct during the final approach.

[Ed Cesnalis]

If I run out of rudder with landing flaps I go elsewhere or come back later. 

Sure I can just land at a higher speed and sans flaps but the wind has already told me it has the upper hand so things might not go well on the ground as I slow down and loose that authority that comes with high speed.  If the wind wants to take me off the runway as I slow down my bag of tricks is now empty

2 long standing observations:

1. Nothing bad happens on landings until the plane contacts the ground 
2. The landing gear on my brand new CTSW was manufactured to provide for the wheel barrow industry and where 'borrowed' by 'light sport' airplanes.

Landing fast in a light sport works fine, until it doesn't. A simple flat tire, with extra speed is all it takes for loss of control.

 

[Tom Baker]

1 hour ago, Ed Cesnalis said:

 

Landing fast in a light sport works fine, until it doesn't. A simple flat tire, with extra speed is all it takes for loss of control.

 

Having landed with a flat tire, it is not until you slow that it becomes an issue. At least that has been my experience.

[Roger Lee]

"Landing fast in a light sport works fine, until it doesn't".

Landing at stall and full flaps in all circumstances works well until it doesn't to. Speed is more often a friend than no speed which usually causes more incidents.

This discussion has come up at least twice a year since 2006 when the forum started. It can not be argued and nor it is correct to say one way fits all nor is it prudent to be rigid in your thinking and skill level for all landings.

It's all correct and most of the time it's just Chevy's vs Ford's. Dislike one or the other, but they both get you there.

[Buckaroo]

58 minutes ago, Roger Lee said:

"Landing fast in a light sport works fine, until it doesn't".

Landing at stall and full flaps in all circumstances works well until it doesn't to. Speed is more often a friend than no speed which usually causes more incidents.

This discussion has come up at least twice a year since 2006 when the forum started. It can not be argued and nor it is correct to say one way fits all nor is it prudent to be rigid in your thinking and skill level for all landings.

It's all correct and most of the time it's just Chevy's vs Ford's. Dislike one or the other, but they both get you there.

You’re totally correct in your statement Roger! 

Thats why a clean controlled configuration is best!????????

[Roger Lee]

I fully believe you should know how to land in all configurations and practice them because when things go south you don't always get your first choice pick. Being rigid in your thinking, performance and techniques just sets you up for failure. You need to be fluid, calm and have access to all your knowledge.

So Ed's comment about it's okay until it isn't applies to anyone who says there is just one way and that's all they do or practice. Always full stall with full flaps can be just a bad as any other situation given the right circumstances.

[Buckaroo]

2 hours ago, Roger Lee said:

All fully believe you should know how to land in all configurations and practice them because when things go south you don't always get your first choice pick. Being rigid in your thinking, performance and techniques just sets you up for failure. You need to be fluid, calm and have access to all your knowledge.

So Ed's comment about it's okay until it isn't applies to anyone who says there is just one way and that's all they do or practice. Always full stall with full flaps can be just a bad as any other situation given the right circumstances.

This is why in my alfalfa landing I decided to hedge against any excess energy and land dead stick with full flaps! Probably the best landing of my life!

[rookie]

On 11/4/2017 at 1:39 AM, coppercity said:

Tim,

It is a very common perception in CT's as we tend to look right towards the center of the plane and try to line up the centerline along that line leading to the nose pointed left.   The centerline should follow your legs forward and should be under your right leg.  It will appear as if the nose is way right of centerline but its straight.

Eric,

I still have and use the piece of blue tape we put on the glare shield,

al

[Hambone]

Having done 16 landings today at 4 different airfields in varying challenging (for me, anyway) wind conditions, and with less than 2 weeks CT time, I'm becoming a fan of the power-on approach, chopping the power at touchdown.

Having a variety of techniques is handy, too.

[Buckaroo]

What flap settings? Probably zero if you said flat!?

[Ed Cesnalis]

9 hours ago, Hambone said:

Having done 16 landings today at 4 different airfields in varying challenging (for me, anyway) wind conditions, and with less than 2 weeks CT time, I'm becoming a fan of the power-on approach, chopping the power at touchdown.

Having a variety of techniques is handy, too.

16 landings on a windy day?  Pretty soon you will 'be used to' landing a CT in the wind

 

[Hambone]

3 hours ago, Buckaroo said:

What flap settings? Probably zero if you said flat!?

Both zero and 15, but preferring zero.

[Hambone]

2 hours ago, Ed Cesnalis said:

16 landings on a windy day?  Pretty soon you will 'be used to' landing a CT in the wind

 

You'd think so!

I have learned the importance of stable, consistent patterns, especially when trying to develop consistent landing techniques.

[Ed Cesnalis]

17 minutes ago, Hambone said:

You'd think so!

I have learned the importance of stable, consistent patterns, especially when trying to develop consistent landing techniques.

That is not CT or even light sport specific but good on you anyway.

Here's a CT tip,  they run out of energy instantly but the Rotax spools up instantly, always be ready with your right hand on the throttle when it matters.  

[FlyingMonkey]

2 minutes ago, Ed Cesnalis said:

That is not CT or even light sport specific but good on you anyway.

Here's a CT tip,  they run out of energy instantly but the Rotax spools up instantly, always be ready with your right hand on the throttle when it matters.  

My first instructor told me to always keep a hand on the throttle.  I almost never take my hand off the throttle lever, even in long distance cruise flight.