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coppercity

UAvionix install

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Starting the install of a uAvionix Echo Esx transponder this week.  Looks like I will be gaining a couple pounds of useful load and ADS-B out!  Win win!

 

 

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rookie   

Hi Eric, I assume you'll output to the 696. Any possibility of output to a a tablet or 796.

al,

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Hi Al,

I went with this Echo ESx transponder for the 1090ES.  I wanted to be covered for international flights and because I already had a GDL39 receiver connected to my 696.  This unit does not have the ADS-B In receiver but uAvionix has a nice selection of products to meet the requirements.

This unit http://www.uavionix.com/products/echo-uat/ can perform the in/out requirements and connect to tablets via Wifi.

Feel free to call if you want and I can hopefully answer any questions, or at least find someone that can :)

 

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Slight delay as I decided to knock out the annual and 100 hr while things were apart.

Here are a few pics of the install so far.  I would estimate about 5-6hrs of install, some of that just deciding how to go about it.

I built up generic tray to mount the remote unit, and have room for other possible gadgets as they become available.   It also mounts like the old transponder tray and supports the comm radio.

Made a new center panel to cover the hole.

GDL 39 on the top of the mushroom.

The control head took place of the backup altimeter.20170727_154923.thumb.jpg.6068d0bb0ecfdbb1ca07f080e0179733.jpg

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I see that you have a GDL-39 in that install.  I use Garmin pilot, so I might need to mount one as well.  Is that wired into ships power, and if so how did you go about it?

One note about the transponder, I see it just has one dial...seems like it might be harder to enter a code than the Garmin method of just punching the numbers, especially in turbulence.  Do you set a digit with the dial, push to lock in, then do the same with the other three digits?

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8 hours ago, coppercity said:

 

The control head took place of the backup altimeter.20170727_154923.thumb.jpg.6068d0bb0ecfdbb1ca07f080e0179733.jpg

 

 

 

You might want to do some checking about this. It was my understanding that the electronic display like the D-100 requires the back up airspeed and altimeter to be ASTM compliant. That was the reason that when they went to dual 10" Skyviews and ran out of panel space the did dual AHARS. There all kinds of little gotchas in the ASTM requirements that are not spelled out in the regulations. Since our airplanes are issued an airworthiness certificate based on the ASTM standards we need to make sure any changes to the airplane do not take them out of compliance with the standards.

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19 minutes ago, Tom Baker said:

You might want to do some checking about this. It was my understanding that the electronic display like the D-100 requires the back up airspeed and altimeter to be ASTM compliant. That was the reason that when they went to dual 10" Skyviews and ran out of panel space the did dual AHARS. There all kinds of little gotchas in the ASTM requirements that are not spelled out in the regulations. Since our airplanes are issued an airworthiness certificate based on the ASTM standards we need to make sure any changes to the airplane do not take them out of compliance with the standards.

Have been researching but have not found a clear requirement for a "backup" to the Dynon yet.  Hopefully FDUSA can let me know one way or the other and I will do what is needed for compliance. 

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N456TS   
On 8/1/2017 at 9:35 AM, Tom Baker said:

You might want to do some checking about this. It was my understanding that the electronic display like the D-100 requires the back up airspeed and altimeter to be ASTM compliant. That was the reason that when they went to dual 10" Skyviews and ran out of panel space the did dual AHARS. There all kinds of little gotchas in the ASTM requirements that are not spelled out in the regulations.

There are a lot of S-LSAs without redundant instruments.  This might be a Flight Design choice that the grape-line changed to an "ASTM spec".  Really, I've only heard it from FD owners....  It's also possible that the requirement was added somewhat recently to the ASTM standard.  I've never seen an S-LSA with a Skyview that didn't have a backup battery on the system, or on at least one of the two (if dual screen equipped).  Maybe that's where it comes from?  If only those ASTM specs were openly available for download...  I'm a bit surprised that work has started prior to getting an LOA.  It would be a bummer to have to rework it, if they have a change in heart or feel it should be done differently. 

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WmInce   
On 8/1/2017 at 9:35 AM, Tom Baker said:

You might want to do some checking about this. It was my understanding that the electronic display like the D-100 requires the back up airspeed and altimeter to be ASTM compliant. That was the reason that when they went to dual 10" Skyviews and ran out of panel space the did dual AHARS. There all kinds of little gotchas in the ASTM requirements that are not spelled out in the regulations. Since our airplanes are issued an airworthiness certificate based on the ASTM standards we need to make sure any changes to the airplane do not take them out of compliance with the standards.

Using that implication, that would make every RV-12 (E-LSA and S-LSA) non-compliant. Many airplanes in that fleet are equiped with a single Skyview display, without any backup flight instruments.

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7 hours ago, WmInce said:

Using that implication, that would make every RV-12 (E-LSA and S-LSA) non-compliant. Many airplanes in that fleet are equiped with a single Skyview display, without any backup flight instruments.

E-LSAs don't have to be compliant.  Their airworthiness certificate is in the experimental category, not the light sport category, so they no longer have to stick to ASTM compliance.  They only have to meet the LSA performance envelope.

Even for S-LSA this seems like a gray area.  After all, the ASTM specs are for *manufacturers* to adhere to, not owners and pilots.  It may be that an ASTM-compliant aircraft must be *built* with backup airspeed/altimeter, but once it's out of the manufacturer's hands, the owner can modify as desired, provided they can convince the manufacturer to supply an LOA or MRA for the change.   

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I seldom reference my instruments when flying, including maneuvering in the mountains.  

I can fly and land my plane with no instruments. I do have backup altimeter and airspeed but I would be fine without.

GPS backup is a bigger deal to me and I have 3 backups there.

Regs aside I don't need no stinkin backup but YMMV

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1 hour ago, FlyingMonkey said:

E-LSAs don't have to be compliant.  Their airworthiness certificate is in the experimental category, not the light sport category, so they no longer have to stick to ASTM compliance.  They only have to meet the LSA performance envelope.

Even for S-LSA this seems like a gray area.  After all, the ASTM specs are for *manufacturers* to adhere to, not owners and pilots.  It may be that an ASTM-compliant aircraft must be *built* with backup airspeed/altimeter, but once it's out of the manufacturer's hands, the owner can modify as desired, provided they can convince the manufacturer to supply an LOA or MRA for the change.   

Andy, I think the standards not only apply to manufacture, but also maintenance, modification, and repair. Part of the reason for the manufacturer to keep records and approve LOA's and MRA's is to make sure the aircraft is maintained in a ASTM compliant state.

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1 hour ago, Tom Baker said:

Andy, I think the standards not only apply to manufacture, but also maintenance, modification, and repair. Part of the reason for the manufacturer to keep records and approve LOA's and MRA's is to make sure the aircraft is maintained in a ASTM compliant state.

Again, I don't know for sure on S-LSAs, but I thought that the ASTM standards are for manufacture only, not for maintenance.  If they were intended for maintenance, would they not have to be publicly available instead of hidden away and shrouded in secrecy, only available to those will to shell out thousands for a copy of the standards to read them?  

I honestly don't know the answer, but if owners are required to abide by a document they are not allowed access to, that is a real problem.  I guess perhaps the manufacturer acts as a gatekeeper for owner ASTM  compliance through the LOA/MRA process, but then that just looks completely arbitrary to the poor owner denied a simple change like removing a redundant instrument.

E-LSA keeps looking better to me the more I learn... 

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Andy, for maintenance there is no need for the standards for the owner pilot, they simple follow the manufacturers maintenance and inspection procedures. The manufacture is supposed to make maintenance manuals available for maintaining the airplane per ASTM requirements. So anything needed by the owner pilot to comply with ASTM should be in the manual. If it isn't in the manual then you have the MRA/LOA process where by the manufacture can provide procedures for repair or alteration that comply with ASTM standards. It is really quite simple, and not as devious as you make it sound.

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This is fun, I've been wondering about the depth some guys are into the repair or modification of their aircraft. For my plane (CTLS S-LSA), the only person who changes anything on it is Roger Lee. If I recall my light sport knowledge test, the owner can change the oil, coolant; replace burnt out lights and grease the wheel bearings. Most everything else is done by an LSRM or better. And of course changing the configuration of the plane by adding or removing equipment would need the blessing of FD, at least that's my understanding of it. This kind of gets back to why FD thinks they can tell you how much air pressure you can put in your tires and which version of Skyview software you can load.

Ever wonder why that clunky compass is stuck in the middle of your windshield? That's because its on the MEL per FD in accordance with ASTM I guess. I think the same is true of the backup airspeed and altimeter. Also I believe Skyview backs up these instruments with the other screen. The D100/120's don't have that backup, I'm guessing again.

Lots of guesses there, let me know what ya'll think.

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18 hours ago, N456TS said:

There are a lot of S-LSAs without redundant instruments.  This might be a Flight Design choice that the grape-line changed to an "ASTM spec".  Really, I've only heard it from FD owners....  It's also possible that the requirement was added somewhat recently to the ASTM standard.  I've never seen an S-LSA with a Skyview that didn't have a backup battery on the system, or on at least one of the two (if dual screen equipped).  Maybe that's where it comes from?  If only those ASTM specs were openly available for download...  I'm a bit surprised that work has started prior to getting an LOA.  It would be a bummer to have to rework it, if they have a change in heart or feel it should be done differently. 

This was just a temporary install in order to get all the documentation together for the MRA and plan harness layout.  With the exception of the small hole in the upper mushroom to pass the GDL39 cable no changes to the airframe or electrical were done.  All is back to original equipment until such time the MRA is evaluated and approved ?

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N456TS   
On 8/3/2017 at 8:11 AM, FlyingMonkey said:

E-LSAs don't have to be compliant.  Their airworthiness certificate is in the experimental category, not the light sport category, so they no longer have to stick to ASTM compliance.  They only have to meet the LSA performance envelope.

Even for S-LSA this seems like a gray area.  After all, the ASTM specs are for *manufacturers* to adhere to, not owners and pilots.  It may be that an ASTM-compliant aircraft must be *built* with backup airspeed/altimeter, but once it's out of the manufacturer's hands, the owner can modify as desired, provided they can convince the manufacturer to supply an LOA or MRA for the change.   

 

E-LSA must be ASTM compliant when issued its airworthiness certificate.  Everything from design to POH.  Afterwards, you can change things which do not conform to the ASTM standard.  At this point, you're only bound by your operating limitations and the FARs. 

There is no gray area for S-LSA.  It's clear cut.  They are built to the ASTM standard.  They are maintained to the ASTM standard.  The maintenance manual must meet that ASTM standard.  There are ASTM rules/specs for EVERY aspect of the aircraft.  Any LOAs must meet the current ASTM standard at the time of LOA issue.  The owner can't modify anything.  An LSRM or A&P can't modify anything unless it written in the maintenance manual or an LOA is issued.  No modification can go against the ASTM standard.  No wild west what so ever. 

To be clear, no owner or mechanic need access to the ASTM specs to do their job.  The owner/mechanic only needs access to the manuals and LOAs provided by the aircraft builder (Flight Design).  Flight Design need access to the ASTM specs and must ensure that the manuals/LOAs/aircraft meet those specs. 

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On 8/5/2017 at 0:00 AM, N456TS said:

 

E-LSA must be ASTM compliant when issued its airworthiness certificate.  Everything from design to POH.  Afterwards, you can change things which do not conform to the ASTM standard.  At this point, you're only bound by your operating limitations and the FARs. 

 

That is correct, for the one moment of the inspection they must be compliant.  They have to conform to the original manufacturer's specs, right down to the installed placards on the panel.  Once the DAR signs off on it and issues the new AW certificate, compliance is no longer required.  Basically it has to be compliant as an S-LSA right up to the moment the new AW certificate is signed.  

After that any modifications are possible, as long as they don't take the airplane out of LSA performance specs.

 

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N456TS   
7 hours ago, FlyingMonkey said:

That is correct, for the one moment of the inspection they must be compliant.  They have to conform to the original manufacturer's specs, right down to the installed placards on the panel. 

If we want to get picky, the placards are the only thing that's different due to the passenger warning requirement, "experimental" visible from each entrance for E-LSAs and "Light Sport" on the side of the hull being a requirement on S-LSAs. 

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6 minutes ago, N456TS said:

If we want to get picky, the placards are the only thing that's different due to the passenger warning requirement, "experimental" visible from each entrance for E-LSAs and "Light Sport" on the side of the hull being a requirement on S-LSAs. 

Yes, but you are not allowed to change them until AFTER  the DAR inspection.  The factory decals must be on for the inspection itself.

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N456TS   
15 minutes ago, FlyingMonkey said:

Yes, but you are not allowed to change them until AFTER  the DAR inspection.  The factory decals must be on for the inspection itself.

No, you can't change them ever.  Those placards have to there at all times to be airworthy.  E-LSA has to have the passenger warning and "experimental" has to be visible.  For S-LSA, "Light Sport" on the side of the hull is a requirement.  All these requirements listed in the FARs.  These aren't ASTM specs. 

After the airworthiness is issued, you're free to change other placards.  Provided you equip the aircraft properly per 91.205(d), you could choose to remove the NO IMC placard. 

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