ISO CTLS 2008 - 2012

[Tom Baker]

2 hours ago, Roger Lee said:

But the the last logbook entry may end up 100+ pages long because you have to show that AD's and certain required work was done. So if you delete the last entry then you have to log that it was done and you then own everybody else work. If the next guy is a 3 line slacker on his entry then you would have to go back to the begining of time of that plane to make sure every mandatory item was done and you would never know when certain preventative things were done.

So this instance would be one idiot leading the other.

 

I don't see anyone standing up here and say I want the bottom 10% for my Doc., my lawyer, my accountant,  the judge, the police officer, ect... We all expect better performance why not demand that same thing we want from other professions in our mechanics. If we are here talking about it why don't we all rise up to do better than we do now.

Roger, you evidently don't understand what I am saying. I certainly didn't say that you should delete the previous entry and rewrite it your self. You don't assume anyone else's work. You don't rewrite their entry.

If you did a condition inspection on a CTSW last year that included everything on the checklist including complying with the reoccurring SB's, but nothing extra. I do the inspection on the airplane this year repeating everything you had done, plus a few extra items. Your inspection no longer means anything and can be purged from the records. Now if your maintenance entry contained something that is not normal, like compliance with a one time AD. It should not be removed from the records. Only the most current maintenance items, inspections, and AD and SD compliance need be retained in the records.

this includes repairs. If you replace a gear leg due to damage the record of that needs to be kept forever, unless the gear leg gets replaced again. If it is replaced a second time, the record of the first replacement can be removed since the procedure was repeated. Another example, you make an entry repaired right wingtip and aileron. Now comes along replaced right wing aileron and flap. The first entry for the repair can be removed from the records, because it doesn't effect any part of the airplane anymore.

The first time working on a airplane I am going to go through all the records to the beginning and check compliance for all SD's and AD's. It is a lot easier to find the important information if you don't have to sort through pages and pages of material that has been repeats annually. Who cares if the ELT has been inspected every year for the last 10 years, as long as it was inspected last year.

[Anticept]

If an owner discards that folder that has the accident info, that is entirely on them.

If I am having to do logbook research, last thing you or any other owner wants is paying me to read long lengthy entries describing the damage before finding anything about repairs. I am fine with a short descriptor of WHY you are doing this work. That is actually useful, especially if I run into the issue again later. But the details of the damage should NOT be in the logs, only the details of your repairs and, if appropriate, the reason.

Much like the checklists. Put them in a separate folder. Don't staple them into the logbooks. That's rediculous and only serves to make my job harder.

In the case of a wing: if you're replacing a broken wing, then the repair is replacement. Sure, the log entry certainly leaves a lot to be desired, which is why I said I would put a few extra things in about how I replaced it, and other areas that I inspected for damage, but that's what the entry would be, and maybe a short reason why it was replaced ("Extensive damage to old wing spar from impact damage"). If it's the result of a truck hitting the wing while it was parked, that's on the owner to keep that information, not you, the mechanic.

You bring the airplane to a mechanic to have it fixed. You bring the airplane to insurance to have it paid for. It's between the seller and the buyer to work out what actually happened before you repaired it. It's not the mechanic's responsibility to document the details of what happened leading up to repairs, or document in detail the damage. In fact, I would argue that doing so opens a door against you, as how you record the events can sway the opinions of people down the road, and just as well, I question whether a mechanic has the resources and time to properly research the events anyways.

Seriously. When asking WHY a mechanic replaced a wing, you should only seek to learn the observations the mechanic made at the time of replacement. Any more details than that, and it's nothing more than gossip. There is only one person who holds responsibility for recording the events, and that is the owner, and maybe the NTSB if they are interested.

 

To summarize, a log should contain the following for repairs.

Description of repairs, consisting of detailed work performed OR the reference material used for the repair and it's revision/version information. Description of inspections performed to determine extent of damage. Description of compliance and conformity relevant to the repairs, such as ground and operations checks, and part numbers used. Factual but brief statements of observations of the aircraft's state before repairs which inform as to why these repairs were performed is optional, but encouraged if it establishes a trend. But the events leading up to the airplane bring brought into the shop DO NOT BELONG in the maintenance logs! That's the owner's responsibility. Statements about the condition of the airplane or parts (discrepancies) that are NOT directly involved in maintenance or repairs also do not belong in the maintenance logs. That's what the discrepancy sheet is for, and it's on the owner to keep it for future review by buyers. Have the owner sign it and keep a copy of the signed sheet if you are worried they will do shady things.

Maintenance logs exist to record compliance of an aircraft and its parts at the time the entry is made. That's their purpose and should be kept as such. Anything unrelated to this purpose should be kept somewhere else; and there are plenty of more effective ways to record that information and retain copies in case of legal action than in a maintenance log where the owner might not even look at it.

[Trip]

On 12/4/2017 at 9:26 AM, bmar said:

Trip,

Did you see this CTLS yet? 

Washington is too far from Alabama to be practical.   Also, the 42 hours in 6 years is a turn off for me.   Thanks, though.  Let me know about your CTLS if you decide to sell.   

Btw, I've seen some log book entries say something like "replaced RT main landing gear, details in office".  The guy dis have his name and I believe a file number but you have to call and dig it up.  It keeps the log books from being so lengthy I guess.   

[Tom Baker]

11 hours ago, Trip said:

Washington is too far from Alabama to be practical.   Also, the 42 hours in 6 years is a turn off for me.   Thanks, though.  Let me know about your CTLS if you decide to sell.   

Btw, I've seen some log book entries say something like "replaced RT main landing gear, details in office".  The guy dis have his name and I believe a file number but you have to call and dig it up.  It keeps the log books from being so lengthy I guess.   

 For the CTLS replacing a gear leg does not mean there is damage history. The gear leg is a simple replacement part. They are designed to fail before there is damage to the airframe. Sometimes they are replaced not because of a complete failure, but some slight damage to the leg itself. I replaced one once on a flying airplane due to some stress cracks in the top lamination.

[Anticept]

Yeahhhh I never liked entries where you have to call the company for more info. Repair stations do that a lot. Again, much of it might not belong in my logs, but put a copy in a folder and provide it with the logs.

[Roger Lee]

If there is a record then all they had to do was hit the print button after they typed it if it was typed and not hand written. If I was an owner I would demand my records because I paid for that.

[Trip]

There is another seller with a couple year old CT that I talked with 8 months ago and asked if he would send me the log books.  Can't have more than 5-6 pages.  Said he didn't have them scanned.  He lives a few hours by car from me so I asked if I could come the next Saturday and see it.  He said an instructor who flies it could meet me so I said I'd come up Friday night and stay in a hotel then meet like at 7-8am.   He then said he couldn't promise the instructor would be there.  I asked for the number for the instructor so I could arrange a time he could for sure meet me.   The seller said he couldn't give the number out.   It's not like I'll call him every day for 2 years.   So I gave up.   Noticed he'd dropped his price by $20k so I called him again.  Same answers.  No log book scanned (8 months later).  Gee what is wrong with people?   He acts like a jerk on the phone, too.   Oh well,  he said he may email the log books to me in a month or so and was about to hang up when I asked if he wanted my email address.  He said to text it to him but I doubt I'll hear from him.   He must have lost the log books or is hiding something.  

[rtk]

1 hour ago, Trip said:

  He must have lost the log books or is hiding something.  

Or he may not be serious about selling, and has it listed to satisfy someone (wife?) who wants him to sell it.

I dealt with a few folks that really didn’t help at all when looking at their aircraft.  One answered questions cryptically, sent partial log books, and only after I paid to have a visual inspection by an A&P on the field, did I find out a lot more about the aircraft, such as its use in a flight school, never hangared (in Florida), two replacement nose gears, etc.  The seller was extremely rude with me on the phone after I pointed out those deficiencies and lack of disclosure, refused to discuss anything less than asking, and stopped responding to me.  Point of all this is:  There is absolutely nothing you can do to make someone sell you their plane.  So if you don’t get cooperation up front, just move on to the next plane.

(BTW, I did find a great plane for a lot less, so it worked out for me in the end.  I’m sure it will for you as well.)

[Trip]

Yep when a red flag waves I walk.  There is another low time plane but hasn't flown in 5-6 years but until you get the log books you don't know.   The broker said he didn't know anything about it.   That's the second broker who has played dumb.   

[Anticept]

I agree with most points made, but if the story is true, guy is right. He doesn't have permission to give that number out. Not hard for him to ask though.

It doesn't matter the circumstances, short of an emergency. You cannot give out someone's number without permission.

Anyways, again, assuming the story is true.

For me, you get one red flag. Often it's a mistake by the owner not understanding your needs. Two is a definite walk.