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Ed Cesnalis

Light Sport 10,000' Altitude restriction with exception

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4 minutes ago, Tom Baker said:

What is immediate surroundings? I am flying on a westerly heading with the following scenario. I have a peak at 10,000 feet that I want to cross with 2000 foot clearance, then a 5,500 foot valley then the next peak 20 miles away is 12,000 feet and I want to cross it with 2000 foot clearance. Do I need to descend back down to 8500 feet before starting my climb to cross the next peak at 14,000? What if the next peak is 40 miles away? Where do you draw the line? That is what I want to know.

It doesn't make sense to have a restriction below the flight levels but as long as they do you need the highest point in your flight plan to set the ceiling for the entire flight.

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4 hours ago, Tom Baker said:

The people in the FAA who write the regulations don't use common sense, and the FAA lawyers who handle enforcement action don't use common sense. What both of them use are the words that are actually written. To them there is no grey area.

If that were truly the case the FAA would never issue letters of interpretation, and just say “in all cases it means exactly what it says.”

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10 minutes ago, FlyingMonkey said:

If that were truly the case the FAA would never issue letters of interpretation, and just say “in all cases it means exactly what it says.”

The FAA issues letters of interpretation because there are more than one way of looking at something, just like the situation we are discussing. The interpretation often comes down to what do the words actually say, and not what common sense thinks they should mean.

A good example of this is instruction time from a sport pilot instructor doesn't count towards the instruction time required for a higher pilot certificate. The intent from the groups who were supporting the sport pilot movement was that it be a stepping stone moving up the path of pilot certification. We all know that a sport pilot instructor teaches the same basic piloting skills to the same standards, but since the regulations only allows sport pilot instructors to train sport pilots the training time can not be used for higher ratings. This came from a lawyer simply looking at the words, and not looking at it with common sense.

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20 hours ago, Roger Lee said:

You guys are going to make a mountain. out of a mole hill when there is no exact number.

I have never heard any authority give an exact number.Why beat it up and still  not have an exact number. In your flight area gives you leeway. Why try to limit yourself. The FAA isn't being that limiting.

These guys are indeed arguing for the sake of arguing.  One-up-man-ship at its best, or worst.  The points have been made and we have all learned about as much as we can on this matter.  We had someone on the list a couple of years ago who did that all the time.  He finally left the group when no one fell for the taunts.  This makes me wish we had a button that allowed us to say "i'm not really reading this thread anymore, and i'd like it to stop appearing in my list of threads to read."

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Question about the 10,000 MSL limit/rule:

I fly as a private pilot (I have kept doing my aviation medical exams because I love flying at night). I am very rusty on Airspace Rules (never really learned the new airspace rules, need to take a ground school actually). But, here's my situation. . .

I'm flying from Kingman AP AZ Saturday to Cedar City, UT, I have to fly above 7999 going over Grand Canyon area. Flying direct, I will actually be over Grand Canyon West, will be in sight of the Sky Walk, might head right over that, only about a mile or 2 west of my direct flight. Anyway, following the odd/even +500 altitude rules, I figure I will fly up (heading of 349) at an altitude of 9,500. And fly home at an altitude of 10,500. 

Question: Since I am a licensed private pilot, can I ignore the below 10,000 MSL limit for Light Sport? I have searched and searched and do not find the answer! I think the 10,000 limit is on the pilot rating, not the aircraft, right?

I would not attempt to cruise above the 10,500 elevation because I understand the Bing carbs start to get too rich at about 10,000.

Thanks,

ET 

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46 minutes ago, ibjet said:

Question about the 10,000 MSL limit/rule:

I fly as a private pilot (I have kept doing my aviation medical exams because I love flying at night). I am very rusty on Airspace Rules (never really learned the new airspace rules, need to take a ground school actually). But, here's my situation. . .

I'm flying from Kingman AP AZ Saturday to Cedar City, UT, I have to fly above 7999 going over Grand Canyon area. Flying direct, I will actually be over Grand Canyon West, will be in sight of the Sky Walk, might head right over that, only about a mile or 2 west of my direct flight. Anyway, following the odd/even +500 altitude rules, I figure I will fly up (heading of 349) at an altitude of 9,500. And fly home at an altitude of 10,500. 

Question: Since I am a licensed private pilot, can I ignore the below 10,000 MSL limit for Light Sport? I have searched and searched and do not find the answer! I think the 10,000 limit is on the pilot rating, not the aircraft, right?

I would not attempt to cruise above the 10,500 elevation because I understand the Bing carbs start to get too rich at about 10,000.

Thanks,

ET 

Yes! The limit is a sport pilot limit not a light sport airplane limit.

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Remember, VFR cruising altitudes are only applicable in the US and Canada, when the cruise altitude is more than 3,000 feet above the surface (AGL) and less than 18,000 feet MSL.

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My memory device for VFR cruising altitudes is "Northeast is odd". Using that system would reverse your two cruising altitudes, you may want to check that. It sounds like a fun trip. The western Grand Canyon fortunately has the lowest altitudes of the rest of the Canyon. Have fun!

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Thank you gentlemen! I mis-stated my heading, it will be 5 degrees heading on the way up. And the way I learned it, anything to the right of 0 degrees is Easterly until 180 degrees, and the saying I memorized is "East is odd, West is even", so I believe I should use 9,500 on the way up and 10,500 on the way back. Sorry for the confusion, Avare shows me Track and Bearing, and sometimes I get them mixed up!

Again thanks, love the knowledge resource here!!!!

ET 

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The whole reason for alternating even and odd is to prevent head on mid airs.  When your five degrees off north or south it doesn't work so well.

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Just now, Ed Cesnalis said:

The whole reason for alternating even and odd is to prevent head on mid airs.  When your five degrees off north or south it doesn't work so well.

If both pilots are technically proficient . . . It should work just fine. 😃

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7 hours ago, WmInce said:

If both pilots are technically proficient . . . It should work just fine. 😃

Reminds me of the hot hazy summer day I met a Pitts almost head on. My heading was 179°. and his must have been 001°. I don't know if he saw me, but I didn't see him until he was passing about 100 feet off my left wing.

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On 5/18/2019 at 5:56 PM, Tom Baker said:

Reminds me of the hot hazy summer day I met a Pitts almost head on. My heading was 179°. and his must have been 001°. I don't know if he saw me, but I didn't see him until he was passing about 100 feet off my left wing.

I don't like to fly within 5° of 0° or 180° headings.  I will "tack" across my intended course to keep away from those kinds of conflicts.  

Around here I usually fly under 3000ft and there are no restrictions at that altitude there on direction of travel.  I almost got drilled by a Mooney flying head on a few years ago.  

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On 5/18/2019 at 10:42 AM, WmInce said:

If both pilots are technically proficient . . . It should work just fine. 😃

Well, I think they have to be proficient and actually looking out the window.  :)

Most of the traffic conflicts I've had involved me making a course change and the other airplane blundering along like they didn't have any clue I was there.

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Tom, there are special Corridors you must use when flying over the grand canyon and they stipulate an altitude of 11500' and 12500' depending upon traveling North or South.  I did a trip last year from Phoenix to Cedar City usng Flight Following and they even reminded me of the corridors and altitudes to use.  Anyways, I had the CTLS up to the required 12500' and it ran just fine.

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I thought the corridors are 10,500 and 11,500, but maybe I'm misremembering.

The Bing carbs don't run "too rich" above 10,000ft, they just run richer than is optimal.  It costs a little bit of power over an optimal setting, but otherwise has no adverse effects.

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10.5 going south and 11.5 going north. There are 6 corridors. They are named on the Grand Canyon map. You can put the GPS coordinates off the map in your aircraft GPS and know exactly where to enter or exit. It is quite easy to do and follow. We have flown these corridors many times at the Page, AZ Fly-In.

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6 hours ago, FlyingMonkey said:

The Bing carbs don't run "too rich" above 10,000ft, they just run richer than is optimal.  It costs a little bit of power over an optimal setting, but otherwise has no adverse effects.

 

It is reasonable to fly your CT above 8,000' at WOT and at WOT the bings are full rich with no leaning.  I only have good lean mixture when I'm descending.

Otherwise if you are not WOT the bings are certainly rumored to be a bit 'too' rich something about the diaphram not having enough pus to move the needle far enough.

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57 minutes ago, Ed Cesnalis said:

 

It is reasonable to fly your CT above 8,000' at WOT and at WOT the bings are full rich with no leaning.  I only have good lean mixture when I'm descending.

Otherwise if you are not WOT the bings are certainly rumored to be a bit 'too' rich something about the diaphram not having enough pus to move the needle far enough.

What I meant was that you're not going to hurt anything flying above 10,000 with the factory Bing mix.  Too rich for conditions?  Sure.  Too rich for the engine?  Nah.

BTW, are your needles in the lean o-ring position?  If so, are you still too lean above 10,000?

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2 hours ago, FlyingMonkey said:

What I meant was that you're not going to hurt anything flying above 10,000 with the factory Bing mix.  Too rich for conditions?  Sure.  Too rich for the engine?  Nah.

BTW, are your needles in the lean o-ring position?  If so, are you still too lean above 10,000?

I'm always too rich above 10k till descent due to WOT.  At least the leaning on the decent cleans up the plugs.

Truth is you can move the needle but without a mixture control and responsive EGT you can't tell.  

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1 hour ago, Ed Cesnalis said:

I'm always too rich above 10k till descent due to WOT.  At least the leaning on the decent cleans up the plugs.

Truth is you can move the needle but without a mixture control and responsive EGT you can't tell.  

EGT should tell the tale, if equipped.

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38 minutes ago, FlyingMonkey said:

EGT should tell the tale, if equipped.

If I had EGT AND mixture, to confirm  I would climb to 10,000' + and configure for level cruise and retard throttle enough to permit leaning. I would next adjust the mixture to find the peak EGT (from there I would think LOP?)  

How would you tell with EGT alone?

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52 minutes ago, Ed Cesnalis said:

If I had EGT AND mixture, to confirm  I would climb to 10,000' + and configure for level cruise and retard throttle enough to permit leaning. I would next adjust the mixture to find the peak EGT (from there I would think LOP?)  

How would you tell with EGT alone?

I’m a Rotax man, so I admit I’m not an expert on mixture control.  I’m given to understand there should be a normal EGT range that should be pretty consistent based on the mixture range.  For example if max EGT is 1400, then running at 1375 is probably pretty lean, and 1200 is probably pretty rich.  For a non fuel injected engine lean of peak operation is likely to just cause detonation, so peak EGT should be the leanest you can go.  If that’s wrong then please correct me.

Roger will yell at me for suggesting it, but have you looked at a HacMan for mixture control?  Normally I wouldn’t consider it since the Bings are so trouble free, but at your altitude...

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17 hours ago, FlyingMonkey said:

I’m a Rotax man, so I admit I’m not an expert on mixture control.  I’m given to understand there should be a normal EGT range that should be pretty consistent based on the mixture range.  For example if max EGT is 1400, then running at 1375 is probably pretty lean, and 1200 is probably pretty rich.  For a non fuel injected engine lean of peak operation is likely to just cause detonation, so peak EGT should be the leanest you can go.  If that’s wrong then please correct me.

Roger will yell at me for suggesting it, but have you looked at a HacMan for mixture control?  Normally I wouldn’t consider it since the Bings are so trouble free, but at your altitude...

For EGT:

Richer = Hotter,  Leaner = Cooler

 

It is sort of counter intuitive, the flame propagation lasts longer when richer, and the flame front may still be burning when the exhaust valve opens, This creates a higher EGT.

A lean mixture will actually have a higher flame temp, but the duration of the flame propagation will be a lot shorter, thus allowing that temp to be absorbed into the surrounding metals. when the RPM stays constant, this means less "heat" or energy is exhausted out the exhaust. meaning lower EGT's

Do the the fuel injected models use a wide band? 

Thanks,

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