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Ed Cesnalis

PPL (and higher) subject to sport pilot limitations?

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13 minutes ago, FlyingMonkey said:

My point was that under administrative law, the agency interpretation can carry as much weight as the regs.  Even something not in the regs can be enforceable based on agency interpretation.

okay, and my point is to check the language first. In this case its right in the FAR,  and not ambiguous so interpretation isn't called for.

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OK, we seem to have lost focus. I'd love someone to clarify the original question. For my part, I like to separate PPL's from Sports. The sport pilot has clear privileges and limitations. Even I can find them under 61.315.  Roger makes the point that a PPL with an expired medical becomes automatically a sport pilot (with its limitations). I'm not sure that's true, but I bow to greater experience.

BasicMed is its own thing. It allows (as I understand it from AOPA writings) a pilot to fly a plane at or below 250 knots, in the US only, carrying 5 passengers, below 18000 feet. And I'm not sure if that's daytime only. But one thing is clear, BasicMed had nothing whatever to do with Sport Pilot ratings or medicals. Again, this is IMO ....

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1 hour ago, SportFlyer1 said:

 The sport pilot has clear privileges and limitations. Even I can find them under 61.315.  Roger makes the point that a PPL with an expired medical becomes automatically a sport pilot (with its limitations). I'm not sure that's true, but I bow to greater experience.

It is true, 61.303 makes it so.

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Uh, I don't find light sport has a lot of 'privileges', but it has a flock of limitations. Maybe its just me, but I find the table in 61.303 to be almost unreadable. I can fathom the Sport license part, but anything dealing with a PPL seems to have to do with gliders and balloons. Also of course, a PPL without his 3rd class I guess would be reduced to flying light sport metal, not his trusty Bonanza.

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12 minutes ago, SportFlyer1 said:

Uh, I don't find light sport has a lot of 'privileges', but it has a flock of limitations. Maybe its just me, but I find the table in 61.303 to be almost unreadable. I can fathom the Sport license part, but anything dealing with a PPL seems to have to do with gliders and balloons. Also of course, a PPL without his 3rd class I guess would be reduced to flying light sport metal, not his trusty Bonanza.

Here is the important stuff from 61.303 for a pilot other than a student or sport pilot flying with just a drivers' license.

(2) Only a U.S. driver's license, 

(ii) At least a recreational pilot certificate with a category and class rating, ( A private pilot ASEL is more than a recreational pilot, and you are approved for single engine land).

(A) Any light-sport aircraft in that category and class, (You may operate any light sport airplane).

(1) You do not have to hold any of the endorsements required by this subpart, but you must comply with the limitations in §61.315. (You don't need the speed or airspace endorsements, but must follow the other limitations in 61.315, (c).

 

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1 minute ago, JohnnyBlackCT said:

A Private without a 3rd class can exercise the privileges of his Private certificate with Basic Med, if he qualifies.  Otherwise, if he is healthy and has no disqualifying issues, as determined by himself and his doctor, he can exercise Sport Pilot privileges with a driver's license.  That may seem somewhat limited, but as someone who is doing exactly that, it's great to be able to fly under the Light Sport rules.

Unlike basic Med, to act as a sport pilot one does not require any determination from their doctor.

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Oh, thanks Tom, it sounds so simple when you describe it. As a dyed in the wool sport pilot, I haven't gotten involved much with BasicMed or PPL's downgrading to Sport.

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8 hours ago, Tom Baker said:

Actually sport pilot requires 75% the training of a private pilot, 15 hours verses 20 hours. It requires only half of the solo time 5 hours verses 10, and half the total time 20 verses 40. Private pilot leave 10 hours on the table that can be used as needed, but not specifically required as training or solo.

Most old school instructors think the same way as you that it is less training, but in reality if both were done in the minimum time a sport pilot has more flight training time that can be used for basic pilot skills. When you back out the 3 hours of night, 3 hours of instrument training, and the additional cross country training from the 20 hours of mimimum flight training required it becomes quite evident.

 

In this context, I refer to "training" as the whole total time. A student pilot certificate, as I like to put it, is a license to learn. To me, the solo time is still learning.

Now one hopes that you never stop learning even after you get your certificate!

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13 minutes ago, Anticept said:

 

In this context, I refer to "training" as the whole total time. A student pilot certificate, as I like to put it, is a license to learn. To me, the solo time is still learning.

Now one hopes that you never stop learning even after you get your certificate!

A student pilot certificate is a license to take instruction. A sport pilot or private pilot certificate is a license to learn

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15 minutes ago, JohnnyBlackCT said:

That depends...

FAA Home  Licenses & Certificates  Medical Certification

Sport Pilot Medical Certification Questions and Answers

If I suspect I have a significant medical condition, but have never had an FAA medical certificate denied, suspended, or revoked, can I exercise sport pilot privileges using my current and valid driver's license, if otherwise qualified?

Response by the Federal Air Surgeon
Long-standing FAA regulation, § 61.53, prohibits all pilots — those who are required to hold airman medical certificates and those who are not--from exercising privileges during periods of medical deficiency. The FAA revised § 61.53 to include under this prohibition sport pilots who use a current and valid U.S. driver's license as medical qualification. The prohibition is also added under §§ 61.23 (c) (2) (iv) and 61.303 (b) (2) (4) for sport pilot operations.

You should consult your private physician to determine whether you have a medical deficiency that would interfere with the safe performance of sport piloting duties. Certain medical information that may be helpful for pilots can be found in our Pilot Safety Brochures.

My response was to what you posted, "if he is healthy and has no disqualifying issues".

Also notice that your source says that you should, not that you must consult a physician.

Again a sport pilot does not have to consult with a physician prior to exercising pilot privileges. They should however follow the regulations regarding medical deficiencies.

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15 hours ago, JohnnyBlackCT said:

That depends...

FAA Home  Licenses & Certificates  Medical Certification

Sport Pilot Medical Certification Questions and Answers

If I suspect I have a significant medical condition, but have never had an FAA medical certificate denied, suspended, or revoked, can I exercise sport pilot privileges using my current and valid driver's license, if otherwise qualified?

Response by the Federal Air Surgeon
Long-standing FAA regulation, § 61.53, prohibits all pilots — those who are required to hold airman medical certificates and those who are not--from exercising privileges during periods of medical deficiency. The FAA revised § 61.53 to include under this prohibition sport pilots who use a current and valid U.S. driver's license as medical qualification. The prohibition is also added under §§ 61.23 (c) (2) (iv) and 61.303 (b) (2) (4) for sport pilot operations.

You should consult your private physician to determine whether you have a medical deficiency that would interfere with the safe performance of sport piloting duties. Certain medical information that may be helpful for pilots can be found in our Pilot Safety Brochures.

EVERY pilot is required to self-certify that he is safe to make each flight.  Making the flight is implicit self-certification.  For Sport Pilots (or other pilots acting with SP privileges) to reasonably make this certification, they should be in consultation with their doctor so they fully understand any medical conditions and/or medications they have.  Ultimately it's a pilot decision and not a doctor decision for an SP, but if it comes out after an accident or other event that you knew or had good reason to know you were unfit for flight, you may face certificate action.

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15 hours ago, SportFlyer1 said:

All too true, but the high performance, complex aircraft have been removed from Sport Pilot hands, thankfully.

I don't understand this attitude.  Are Sport Pilots some kind of menace?  I'll put my flying skills up against most PPs with similar hours.  There is almost zero difference between a Sport Pilot with 500 hours on a DL medical and a PP with 500 hours using BasicMed, in day VFR flight.  Please don't assume that all Sport Pilots are unprofessional, dangerous pilots because of some bias you have. 

I see Private, Commercial, and even ATP pilots all the time who just terrible, and I know Part 103 pilots who are outstanding, safe pilots with NO ratings.  Ratings have NOTHING to do with skill, judgement, and safe operation of an airplane one is properly trained in, and it's a pet peeve of mine when people act like they do.

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I'm glad you were able to get that off your chest. I certainly agree with you 100% When I was a student, I asked my CFI why the difference in training hours between Sport and PPL. As far as I could see, we were all flying together and doing the same things. So I asked if Sport required too little flying or PPL required too much. He just laughed and said they both require too little training. Both are truly a license to learn. Just stay alive long enough to learn it.

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On 11/22/2017 at 10:49 AM, SportFlyer1 said:

I'm glad you were able to get that off your chest. I certainly agree with you 100% When I was a student, I asked my CFI why the difference in training hours between Sport and PPL. As far as I could see, we were all flying together and doing the same things. So I asked if Sport required too little flying or PPL required too much. He just laughed and said they both require too little training. Both are truly a license to learn. Just stay alive long enough to learn it.

I think this is my favorite thing read on this forum to date.  Sounds like your CFI was a very wise individual.

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Sport Plot absolutely needs a little goggle time in the CTLS

61.93 (e) (12) Control and maneuvering soley by reference to flight instruments, including straight and level, turns, descents, climbs, use of radio aids, and ATC directives. For student pilots seeking a sport pilot certificate, the provisions of this paragraph only apply when receiving training for cross-country flight in an airplane that has a  Vh greater than 87 knots CAS.

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