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captain132

CT2K advice required

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1 hour ago, Runtoeat said:

Ed, if closer to you, I would like to take a ride and observe your technique.  I am pretty much doing what you do but I just like to keep that little amount of rearward stick travel for reserve.  Guess that until I get the stick full back, I'm still in the learning mode but I'm comfortable landing this way.  I note that Tom Baker also teaches his students this technique.

Dick, keeping stick in reserve on balance means your are electing to land at a lower angle of attack.  Intent or reason for doing is different from the result. 

Tom's method for teaching is geared for 'beginners' that need hundreds of landings to develop your feel.  Should day 1 technique be what you aspire to or even what you are using for normal landings at this point?

You can't really break down a good CTSW landing anyway.  The parts all jumble together and we are practically approaching, rounding out and flaring all in one connected motion when at minimum speed.  Its more like a golf swing.   

Leaving stick in reserve keeps it static (as mike says) and reduces AOA.  Sense the main just below and behind you and now use that last bit of travel to reach forward with that gear like a bird grabbing a perch out in front while flaring.  Let me know when you do it.

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Runtoeat   

I let a friend land my CT a long time ago and he let the speed fall off too much and then tried to stop the sink by pulling back.  I saw where things were going but before I could intervene, the tail bumped the ground.  I saw a tail strike happen to another CT which resulted in some serious repair work of the the ventral fin.  Due to this,  I try not to pitch any more than what it takes to keep the front just off the runway and let it drop on it's own.  Based on Andy's comments, this seems to work for him also.  Your comparison to a bird reaching for the perch is good.  I'll find the right conditions and work on getting the stick full back.  I'm curious if I'll be comfortable with this or will resort back to my current method.  Either way, it's good to explore another facet of the many that our CTSW's offer us.  Thanks.

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1 hour ago, Ed Cesnalis said:

You can't really break down a good CTSW landing anyway.  The parts all jumble together and we are practically approaching, rounding out and flaring all in one connected motion when at minimum speed.  Its more like a golf swing.   

That is truth.

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bseager   

After years of debate on landing the CT the analogy to a good golf swing really resonates with me. Great post.

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33 minutes ago, Runtoeat said:

I let a friend land my CT a long time ago and he let the speed fall off too much and then tried to stop the sink by pulling back.  I saw where things were going but before I could intervene, the tail bumped the ground.  I saw a tail strike happen to another CT which resulted in some serious repair work of the the ventral fin.  Due to this,  I try not to pitch any more than what it takes to keep the front just off the runway and let it drop on it's own.  Based on Andy's comments, this seems to work for him also.  Your comparison to a bird reaching for the perch is good.  I'll find the right conditions and work on getting the stick full back.  I'm curious if I'll be comfortable with this or will resort back to my current method.  Either way, it's good to explore another facet of the many that our CTSW's offer us.  Thanks.

Dick,

I'm not trying to persuade you on how to land your plane.  I am reacting to your reasoning. 

Am I wrong on this?  Full aft stick at 30* and its not possible to scrape the tail or even come close.  Full aft works great at 30 and with 15 not so much.  At 15 its more like letting the mains kiss while you still have good flying speed.  

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1 hour ago, Ed Cesnalis said:

Dick,

I'm not trying to persuade you on how to land your plane.  I am reacting to your reasoning. 

Am I wrong on this?  Full aft stick at 30* and its not possible to scrape the tail or even come close.  Full aft works great at 30 and with 15 not so much.  At 15 its more like letting the mains kiss while you still have good flying speed.  

I think it depends on your airspeed and height when you have full aft stick.  Five feet above the runway at 40kt and 30 flaps...you will be landing tail first.

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36 minutes ago, FlyingMonkey said:

I think it depends on your airspeed and height when you have full aft stick.  Five feet above the runway at 40kt and 30 flaps...you will be landing tail first.

Every 'golfswing' is different and the steep variation for me has a full aft stick above 10' sometimes.    Its not about speed but vertical speed and I can be full aft ~ 1/2 wing span if my sink rate is both rapid and not too fast.

10' and sinking nicely with loaded flaps works  where five feet and no loading not so much. Things need to be pretty dynamic at this point so those numbers alone could be okay or not. What's the trend?

Video shows my full aft contacts happen at 39kts and I might get to that 40kts with some height left but as long as my vertical speed is good and not accelerating its fine.

Are you seeing or at least avoiding this kind of tail strike because you drop from five feet and your drop is a nose high mush?

 

 

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WmInce   
7 hours ago, Runtoeat said:

The "tailbone drag" is something I've seen happen on a CT first hand and it's not a good thing.

There seems to be a slight misunderstanding, regarding my reference to sight picture.

The "tailbone dragging" was of the human kind . . . not "tailCONE dragging" of the airplane. . . . ^_^

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13 hours ago, Ed Cesnalis said:

Dick,

I'm not trying to persuade you on how to land your plane.  I am reacting to your reasoning. 

Am I wrong on this?  Full aft stick at 30* and its not possible to scrape the tail or even come close.  Full aft works great at 30 and with 15 not so much.  At 15 its more like letting the mains kiss while you still have good flying speed.  

It has been a while since I have flown a SW, but with the LS if you have the stick full aft at touch down with 15° flaps you will not have good flying speed. From memory the SW is about the same as the LS.

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12 hours ago, Ed Cesnalis said:

Every 'golfswing' is different and the steep variation for me has a full aft stick above 10' sometimes.    Its not about speed but vertical speed and I can be full aft ~ 1/2 wing span if my sink rate is both rapid and not too fast.

10' and sinking nicely with loaded flaps works  where five feet and no loading not so much. Things need to be pretty dynamic at this point so those numbers alone could be okay or not. What's the trend?

Video shows my full aft contacts happen at 39kts and I might get to that 40kts with some height left but as long as my vertical speed is good and not accelerating its fine.

Are you seeing or at least avoiding this kind of tail strike because you drop from five feet and your drop is a nose high mush?

 

If that question is directed to me, then no I don't "drop from five feet".  

I generally try for a steady descent rate into ground effect.  Then normally there is a "pause" at ground effect at around 10ft, then the sink starts again.  That is usually my cue to start working the stick back.  Sometimes if I'm doing a minimum speed landing (calm winds and/or short grass field), my approach speed is as low as 48kt, and then there is a lack of noticeable ground effect pause as you sink right through it.  That requires more feel and timing to get right.

I aim to arrest the descent a few inches to a foot above the surface, then keep working the stick back to hold it off until contact occurs.  That part of it is pretty standard practice for most airplanes.  

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1 minute ago, FlyingMonkey said:

If that question is directed to me, then no I don't "drop from five feet". 

you used it as an example of how to realize a tail strike

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Just now, Ed Cesnalis said:

you used it as an example of how to realize a tail strike

Right, but that doesn't mean that's my technique!  :D

What I meant was that if you are ten feet in the air and stick full back at 40kt and idle power,  you are going to get into a nose high attitude and a high sink rate, which is a recipe for a tail smash.  Sorry if I was not clear on what I meant.

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30 minutes ago, FlyingMonkey said:

What I meant was that if you are ten feet in the air and stick full back at 40kt and idle power,  you are going to get into a nose high attitude and a high sink rate, which is a recipe for a tail smash.  Sorry if I was not clear on what I meant.

As in a mush stall that you could demonstrate at altitude?   Okay, guess that would likely do it.

 

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Runtoeat   

My recollection of the tail strike is what Andy describes.  Typical with a GA pilot flying the CT, my friend rounded out too high and wasn't expecting the rapid speed bleed-off.  I don't recall the flap setting and guess it was 15 but may have been 30.  He wasn't carrying enough speed and encountered the sink.  His reaction was to do what he would normally do with the Cessnas and Pipers he typically flies which was to just pull back and let the plane sink and touch down hard.  This works with the bullet proof Cessna's but not with a CT.  This all occurred so fast, and I was also pretty much a newbee too, that I didn't take over and add throttle.  Just some cosmetic damage but a lesson learned for both of us.

Ed, no worries that I might feel your comments are telling me how to land.  The thing is, and it relates to your excellent analogy to the good golf swing, is that I do a pretty good landing now with the occasional "hook" or "slice" and am getting comfortable in my old age.  But, I have been so far out of the box with the training my friend Phil has given me that anything is fair game for me to try and I look forward to this.  As I said earlier, I'm pretty much where you are with the final stage and have a pretty good feeling for how my CT will respond so I need to get out of my comfort zone and give that "full stick" thing a try.

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