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Ed Cesnalis

'Full Stall' vs 'Minimum Speed'

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So which is it?  'Full Stall' or 'Minimum Speed'?

  • Is there a stall?
  • Is minimum speed achieved?
  • Who determines minimum speed?
  • How is minimum speed set?

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I'm glad you ask. :)

  • Is there a stall?      Don't know you'd have to ask the pilot.
  • Is minimum speed achieved?  I don''t know.     
  • Who determines minimum speed?   The pilot
  • How is minimum speed set?   The Pilot.

It may be different for each person. It still isn't a one size fits all and this discussion is whether you should be advising a new CT owner to do full stall landings without any skill learning curve established.

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I say near stall speed, and close to minimum speed for the configuration. The actual touchdown speed may be slower than the published stall speed because of ground effect.

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This whack a mole of new threads all on the same topic is getting a little weird.  It seems like the discussion gets to a certain point where people differ, then a new thread pops up and the cycle of abuse starts over...  ;)

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WmInce   
1 hour ago, FlyingMonkey said:

This whack a mole of new threads all on the same topic is getting a little weird.  It seems like the discussion gets to a certain point where people differ, then a new thread pops up and the cycle of abuse starts over...  ;)

That reminds me of someone who used to post frequently here.:ph34r:

Stir the pot . . . then bug out.

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Full stall landings and full flap landings will NEVER EVER be solved here because there is no right answer. Just banter every 6 months or so.

All landings seem to work as they are all used all over the world.

Look what time it is time to go. :giggle-3307:

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5 hours ago, Ed Cesnalis said:

So which is it?  'Full Stall' or 'Minimum Speed'?

  • Is there a stall?
  • Is minimum speed achieved?
  • Who determines minimum speed?
  • How is minimum speed set?
  • no stall
  • full aft stick is the best indicator
  • designer 
  • placement of stop n stabilator

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5 minutes ago, JohnnyBlackCT said:

That was my thought also.  How many ways can you beat this same horse to death?  There's more to flying than landing.

There certainly is more to it than just landings, but hopefully every flight ends with a nice one

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2 hours ago, JohnnyBlackCT said:

As well as a nice preflight, taxi, take-off, climb, cruise, descent, approach, landing, taxi, parking, etc. etc.  I think this landing discussion has pretty well covered every opinion more than once.

There is a big difference now.  Recent discussions have less personal attack and less attempts at silencing and more actual discussion of the issues from both sides and new things are finally being revealed.

The standard has been minimum speed and due to this very thread I see that minimum speed is hard for us pilots to even define.  We are quick to argue against min speed so we might want to know and agree on precisely what it means?

Me and two others started the CT forum almost 10 years ago to facilitate discussing our unique design including its quirks.  Your shut up message makes it hard to do.

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1 minute ago, JohnnyBlackCT said:

Why are you attacking me?

I attack no-one.  Andy can speak for himself.

'Full stall' is causing bad communication at the moment between Roger and Tom.  Its good to identify that this phrase is problematic.  Breaking things down a big has led to some recent communication break throughs. 

Don't follow is a better option than telling me to shut me up and get some dual.  Some here value my input, if you need to censor me you should get Admin status.  

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20 hours ago, FlyingMonkey said:

This whack a mole of new threads all on the same topic is getting a little weird. 

Much has been revealed about landing CTs recently.  Fewer straw men, fewer personal attacks and some new perspective, that's a pretty good thing.  One way we have found to talk to each other more and past each other less is by avoiding the traps the take any fair discussion back into a 'clique' thing.  

Look at what we can see from this thread.  We already know that the phrase 'full stall landing' is a huge problem, its missused, missunderstood and ends discussions without resolution like we currently see with Roger and Tom.

The FAA phrase, the phrase that says what it means is 'Miniumum Speed' and only now, due to this thread,  can I see many don't have a handle on the definition, the corresponding number, who sets this number and how its achieved.    

This is a different more fundamental conversation.

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WmInce   
3 hours ago, Ed Cesnalis said:

Much has been revealed about landing CTs recently.  Fewer straw men, fewer personal attacks and some new perspective, that's a pretty good thing.  One way we have found to talk to each other more and past each other less is by avoiding the traps the take any fair discussion back into a 'clique' thing.  

Look at what we can see from this thread.  We already know that the phrase 'full stall landing' is a huge problem, its missused, missunderstood and ends discussions without resolution like we currently see with Roger and Tom.

The FAA phrase, the phrase that says what it means is 'Miniumum Speed' and only now, due to this thread,  can I see many don't have a handle on the definition, the corresponding number, who sets this number and how its achieved.    

This is a different more fundamental conversation.

I see nothing remarkable about reinventing the wheel.

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6 minutes ago, WmInce said:

I see nothing remarkable about reinventing the wheel.

You make your feelings known frequently.  Feel free not to participate.  No need to shut down the discussion though, it is valuable for some.  More than anything it is the reason we started the Forum almost 10 years ago.  We were talking on SportTalk but there was too much CT interest and many were struggling with transition.

Reading between the lines it seems you believe this is all settled long ago ( fly it on camp won ) and thats fine.  No need to reinforce that my opinion isn't valued by you every time I post.

:) 

 

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On 1/7/2018 at 1:53 PM, Ed Cesnalis said:

You make your feelings known frequently.  Feel free not to participate.  No need to shut down the discussion though, it is valuable for some.  More than anything it is the reason we started the Forum almost 10 years ago.  We were talking on SportTalk but there was too much CT interest and many were struggling with transition.

Reading between the lines it seems you believe this is all settled long ago ( fly it on camp won ) and thats fine.  No need to reinforce that my opinion isn't valued by you every time I post.

:) 

 

I don’t think anybody takes exception to landing technique discussion.  But we don’t need a new thread on it twice a week.  Just start a landing technique thread and keep all of the discussions there.  At least that way if somebody wants to find info on landings, they can dig through one deep thread instead of twenty single page threads.

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33 minutes ago, FlyingMonkey said:

I don’t think anybody takes exception to landing technique discussion.  But we don’t need a new thread on it twice a week.  Just start a landing technique thread and keep all of the discussions there.  At least that way if somebody wants to find info on landings, they can dig through one deep thread instead of twenty single page threads.

In the begginning it was my job to post, be mr LSA and build and audience.  11 years ago obtaining ranking in Google wasn't a given and we had a strategy.  Prolly wasn't needed by the time of the re-launch by current Roger. Even at the re-launch I was given admin status to help manage content from an SEO standpoint.  Again, no longer needed but old habits die hard I guess.

I do try and use some judgement.  One thing for sure is in these current times no matter how I go about anything the pushback will come in waves.  Whatever.

I get it I'm seeing somethings as being helpful not lumped together, especially when they touch on a point of general confusion.  That's my aim.

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Hi Ed,

You're always okay with me. :)

These idea sharing thoughts to me are nothing to get upset over and just a debate of simular or differing ideas. Sometimes there is a better way and sometimes it's just another way to skin the cat, but to me who cares so long as it works for you.

Unfortunately things just in black and white may be interpreted incorrectly by the second party and it may have never been meant that way.

There has to be Ying & Yang so we stay balanced. :bow_to_each_other-968:

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Runtoeat   

Agree with Andy.  How about changing the name of this discussion area to just "Landing the CT" and any and all comments about landing go here - whether they are  :me_too-859:  or       :tut_tut-3315:   

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Runtoeat   

Ha,ha. These guys have been playing too many combat game videos.  Makes my body ache just watching these yahoos.

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40 minutes ago, Runtoeat said:

Agree with Andy.  How about changing the name of this discussion area to just "Landing the CT" and any and all comments about landing go here - whether they are  :me_too-859:  or       :tut_tut-3315:   

 

Dick,

Especially in recent years one camp has at times silenced the other.   Mostly a matter of a big group not agreeing with a minority and the minority point can get lost in that back and forth. Its usually along those lines where I might see a new thread / a new take helpful as in this case.

What I find so noteworthy at this point it that the average LS pilot can't demonstrate a min speed landing not because he isn't a good stick but because he doesn't know what the phrase means exactly.  Very much like the full stall phrase that will take a valuable discussion and take it into the weeds in a heartbeat.

My guess is you know the meaning of each but most don't

I don't think I am talking about landings now but more why talking about landings gets sidetracked.

 

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57 minutes ago, Roger Lee said:

Hi Ed,

You're always okay with me. :)

we go back too far not to be okay with each other.  so I'm going to use our relationship here to demo my point a bit :)

I ask the question and Rog takes the bait:

 

Question:

On 1/6/2018 at 7:57 AM, Ed Cesnalis said:

So which is it?  'Full Stall' or 'Minimum Speed'?

  • Is there a stall?
  • Is minimum speed achieved?
  • Who determines minimum speed?
  • How is minimum speed set?

 

Roger's answers:

 

On 1/6/2018 at 10:03 AM, Roger Lee said:

I'm glad you ask. :)

  • Is there a stall?      Don't know you'd have to ask the pilot.
  • Is minimum speed achieved?  I don''t know.     
  • Who determines minimum speed?   The pilot
  • How is minimum speed set?   The Pilot.

 

my answers:

On 1/6/2018 at 1:41 PM, Ed Cesnalis said:
  • no stall
  • full aft stick is the best indicator
  • designer 
  • placement of stop n stabilator

 

See the opposite mind sets?  See what I learned?   Isn't this difference related to our inability to see landings the same?

There has to be a reason why 9 times out of 10 we talk past each other

 

 

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Went flying yesterday and when I went to land suddenly there were all these voices talking in my head. They all made good points, but it was very distracting. I tried all kinds of different things and slowly the voices went away. Then I realized it was just the practice that was making me better. There's a lot of good ways to put this plane on the runway and I've decided to practice them all, just for the fun of it.

During my transition training with Tom Gutmann jr. I landed the CT for the first time (and what a struggle it was). Tom complimented me on a nice landing, in fact he said I had made about 5 nice landings on the way down. We spent the rest of the day whittling it down to 1 nice landing. :laughter-3293:

 

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"There's a lot of good ways to put this plane on the runway and I've decided to practice them all, just for the fun of it."

The voice of reason! :clap-3332:

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