iaw4 Posted July 13, 2018 Report Share Posted July 13, 2018 I am planning to purchase a 10-13 year old CT** in the next 12 months. I have no mechanical talents. I plan to ask Roger to do the annuals, although I also need a local solution for the unforeseen. (I am in SoCal). unfortunately, I will also need to store the airplane outdoors. Airport hangars near me cost $800-$1,200/month, while outdoor tie-downs cost $100/month. I will need to wrap the airplane in a Bruce condom, ask Roger to seal it once a year as good as possible, and hope for the best. could someone help me put together a to-be-expected cost schedule? every 6 years: parachute. (installed) cost: every 12 years: parachute and rocket. (installed) cost: every 5 years: rotax rubber replacement, incl engine mounts. (installed) cost: every 1 year: annual. (completed) cost with average issues: (seal for outdoor storage?) what else? plus standard stuff, from gas to filters to oil to ... sincerely, /iaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WmInce Posted July 14, 2018 Report Share Posted July 14, 2018 9 hours ago, iaw4 said: (I am in SoCal)... . . . unfortunately, I will also need to store the airplane outdoors. For me personally, without a hangar, that's a deal breaker for a CT. JMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted July 14, 2018 Report Share Posted July 14, 2018 We can't give you an installed cost. This is far too variable. Here's the base costs every 6 years: parachute. : 750 i believe every 12 years: parachute and rocket. : 1350 last I knew every 5 years: rotax rubber replacement, incl engine mounts. : EXTREMELY variable. Can't even give you an estimate. every 1 year: annual : inspection only will run around 1,200 average if the mechanic is actually doing *all* the items in the checklist plus basic servicing. can't give you average issues, too variable. gasoline: too variable. oil and filter: 120-140 for 12 litres aeroshell sport plus 4. filter will be $20 plus shipping. Insurance: variable, might be 1,250, might be 3,000. Depends on your talents and your policy. I'll make this simple for you. Take the value of the aircraft, and calculate 10% of that. That's the cost of owning an airplane per year, averaged over the life of the engine, not including fuel, for someone that flies 100 hours a year. This should cover nearly all of your expenses. I had my CT sit outside for a year. Had to. Covered the cabin only. I can tell you, even under that, it just doesn't come out the same. Moisture just soaks into places. Everything is OK but it definitely lost a lot of shine. You should try to find a countryside airport. If you have to drive a hundred and fifty miles to get to your airplane, it is still worth it for what you'll save on wear, "Bruce condom" or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iaw4 Posted July 14, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2018 in SoCal, we are "blessed" with low humidity. in fact, we are so blessed, that it makes the news every couple of years (when we run out of water) ;-). on the negative side, we do have large day-night differences, though. We all agree that outdoor storage is terrible. This applies both to aluminum cans and carbon fiber construction. I have asked around and most people seem to believe that it's no worse for one than the other. Does anyone have any (other) comparative experiences with aluminum vs fiber? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iaw4 Posted July 14, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2018 13 hours ago, Anticept said: every 5 years: rotax rubber replacement, incl engine mounts. : EXTREMELY variable. Can't even give you an estimate. can you elaborate a little bit? there must be some reasonable range here. or worst case scenario. Quote I'll make this simple for you. Take the value of the aircraft, and calculate 10% of that. That's the cost of owning an airplane per year, averaged over the life of the engine, not including fuel, for someone that flies 100 hours a year. This should cover nearly all of your expenses. this seems like a good rule of thumb for comparing same-age airplane. alas, a new airplane costs around $150,000. A 12-year old costs around $60,000. a 10% rule is probably misleading. I will also need to adjust for sellers that have already replaced the rocket, vs. those who have not. etc. Quote I had my CT sit outside for a year. Had to. Covered the cabin only. I can tell you, even under that, it just doesn't come out the same. Moisture just soaks into places. Everything is OK but it definitely lost a lot of shine. You should try to find a countryside airport. If you have to drive a hundred and fifty miles to get to your airplane, it is still worth it for what you'll save on wear, "Bruce condom" or not. I agree, but $10-15,000/year for a hangar is just too much. Driving 150 miles in SoCal can take you 10 hours ;-). I hope an extra $2k/year will cover the extra restoration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cluemeister Posted July 14, 2018 Report Share Posted July 14, 2018 Are you able to find a shade hangar? That might be a good compromise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted July 14, 2018 Report Share Posted July 14, 2018 9 hours ago, iaw4 said: can you elaborate a little bit? there must be some reasonable range here. or worst case scenario. this seems like a good rule of thumb for comparing same-age airplane. alas, a new airplane costs around $150,000. A 12-year old costs around $60,000. a 10% rule is probably misleading. I will also need to adjust for sellers that have already replaced the rocket, vs. those who have not. etc. I agree, but $10-15,000/year for a hangar is just too much. Driving 150 miles in SoCal can take you 10 hours ;-). I hope an extra $2k/year will cover the extra restoration. Point 1: It really is too variable. It depends on who you have work on it and what they find along the way. There's a lot of steps involved. Point 2: It is a good rule of thumb. It will be a little high for a brand new airplane, but it serves well. Alternatively, keep the cost of a new engine plus 25% in the bank. You being an economist, you understand how much people hate surprises. Planning for the worst and not having the worst happen is OK. Planning for best case scenario and ending up having the worst happen, is so so much more aggravating. Of course, plan within reason too, but until you get a hang of your airplane's costs, plan for the worst. Point 3: The sun is the absolute worst on a composite airplane for your area. Snow and ice for my area. You're going to hate messing with a full airplane cover really fast, and you're going to be miserable. That SoCal sun beating down on you while standing on that tarmac, trying to cover it after a hot day of flying. Trust me on that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S3flyer Posted July 14, 2018 Report Share Posted July 14, 2018 16 minutes ago, Anticept said: Point 3: The sun is the absolute worst on a composite airplane for your area. Snow and ice for my area. You're going to hate messing with a full airplane cover really fast, and you're going to be miserable. That SoCal sun beating down on you while standing on that tarmac, trying to cover it after a hot day of flying. Trust me on that one. I can't comment on the long-term structural effects of the sun on composites -- that's a question you should ask FD. I once saw a SoCal-based StingSport (carbon fiber low wing) in for maintenance that was tied down outside for around 8 years. Paint no longer had the sheen (of my hangered Sting S3) and the plastic covers over the exterior lights was opaque. The covers had to be replaced to remain airworthy but was not a big cost. The mechanic did not seem overly concerned on the structural wear-n-tear, though. YMMV. As to putting covers on/off in the heat of summer. I had a Cherokee 180 tied down outside in Houston for several years and never thought about it being a bother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted July 14, 2018 Report Share Posted July 14, 2018 The paint helps protect it. It's acrylic urethane. Without it, it would degrade quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warmi Posted July 14, 2018 Report Share Posted July 14, 2018 I thought SoCal was just dry heat which is not bad ( they keep all these planes stored in the desert) and humidity was the real killer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iaw4 Posted July 14, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2018 1 hour ago, Warmi said: I thought SoCal was just dry heat which is not bad ( they keep all these planes stored in the desert) and humidity was the real killer. yes, and there are some truly amazing airplanes there, as in however, these are metal airplanes. I have also seen metal airplanes stored outdoors in the Northeast, and despite rain and sun, they actually held up pretty well. I was worried about the composites. But I got the message sofar that, due to the good paint, it should be ok. I am thinking that I will need a new paint job every 5 years or so, and I will be ok. the tarmac is indeed unpleasantly hot. and wrapping and unwrapping bruce condoms in 100 degree weather is not much fun, either. if I can get a sun shade, I would pay for it for sure. I will see whether I can find one, but I am not too hopeful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted July 15, 2018 Report Share Posted July 15, 2018 SoCal, to me, is the coastal regions in southern california. I wouldn't call it a dry place... even worse, it's a salty sea air place. Now if you mean to include the colorado/mojave desert area... yeah that's really dry. Great place for airplane storage if you can keep the tires from melting to the pavement! (yes, you need to be careful of this, I have seen tires melt on desert tarmacs). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandpiper Posted July 16, 2018 Report Share Posted July 16, 2018 I've never experienced tire melt but one year I flew my Alaskan plane down to Bakersfield from Fairbanks. Tied it down and when I came back a week later there were puddles of grease around each wheel. It was not used to 110F temperatures. I have done two 5 year hose replacements on my 2007 CTSW and have found just the materials to be in the $1,000 to $1200 range if memory serves. In 2008 I took, with Roger, the course from Rainbow that earned us a LSRM-A. I highly recommend it. However, if I had to pay myself for my time plus pay Roger for his telephonic help my cost per hour would soar! Since I am not in business doing this on a regular basis, I am a little slow. If Roger says 30 minutes to do a task, I'll take 90 minutes - or more. But, my work seems to come out pretty good. For example, earlier this year I did the 5 year hose change to include pulling the engine to install new engine mounts. Didn't have any pieces left over and all worked as intended for the airplane to be "in condition for safe operation" except one small coolant seep easily fixed. I won't tell you how long this took!! If you buy a Rotax powered plane you should take, as a minimum, the Rotax service class. Even if you never actually do your own oil changes, carb syncs, etc, the knowledge you gain will be worth it. Also, I would recommend membership in rotax-owner.com. About $30/year but I find the maintenance videos they make available to be invaluable. Finally, you will "want" a hangar even though you technically don't "need" one. Even if you have to have hangar and/or airplane partners. For me that would suck since I don't play well with others when it comes to my vehicles. But, sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do! Goog luck!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted July 16, 2018 Report Share Posted July 16, 2018 It was the craziest thing I had ever seen. Basically, the guy was in a low wing piper. I was in my Mooney. I saw him roll the aircraft forward a couple feet, and put his hands around his head. The tires had a flat spot on them, and this melty looking ring around the flat spot. That said, sandpiper, now that I think about it, it might have been the *tarmac* that melted to his tires! It was the worst heat I felt and I only stopped long enough to use the restroom and move on. I really didn't want to deal with the same problem he did! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iaw4 Posted July 16, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2018 8 hours ago, Anticept said: SoCal, to me, is the coastal regions in southern california. I wouldn't call it a dry place... even worse, it's a salty sea air place. the truth hurts! yes, you are right. SoCal is not Mojave. however, the salt should not be able to move far inland. and, although SoCal is not as dry as Mojave, it is still a lot drier than, say, the NorthEast. my main concern was whether composite was worse then metal, or just equally bad, so that I know what awaits me. I have an idea of how badly metal airplanes deteriorate and that it can be fixed with extra maintenance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted July 16, 2018 Report Share Posted July 16, 2018 The aluminum parts are somewhat a problem near the salty sea air... It's the steel parts.... The bolts, nuts, rods, cylinders on non rotax engines... They are the problem in salty sea air, and it doesn't take much. One airplane i care for, n178ct, lived a life in florida for a couple years. There's a coating of rust on everything. It's just a coating, nothing serious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S3flyer Posted July 16, 2018 Report Share Posted July 16, 2018 14 hours ago, Anticept said: That said, sandpiper, now that I think about it, it might have been the *tarmac* that melted to his tires! It was the worst heat I felt and I only stopped long enough to use the restroom and move on. I really didn't want to deal with the same problem he did! Had this happen in Brownwood, TX which has long and wide asphalt runway in central Texas with a large tarmac around the FBO. Landed with temp at 105F and taxied to the ramp. Got out and the tarmac felt squishy as we walked to the FBO. We had a quick lunch and when we came out my Bellanca had depressed the asphalt a 1/2 inch or so. I felt like I was leaving tracks all they way from taxi through rotation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted July 16, 2018 Report Share Posted July 16, 2018 The SoCal enviroment is highly variable. I once bought a rusted out oldsmobile that lived in Newport Beach (John Wayne is out) but the San Fernando Valley is more like the Mojave Dessert (Van Nuys Okay). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODowneyEng Posted July 18, 2018 Report Share Posted July 18, 2018 Just sent my BRS back for repack and New rocket this time. Price $2180 + $150 for shipping. Remember the empty rocket tube must also be returned. NOT THE ROCKET. unless you want to go to Gaol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandpiper Posted July 18, 2018 Report Share Posted July 18, 2018 Is Gail cute?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted July 19, 2018 Report Share Posted July 19, 2018 You only need to send the chute back. No rocket parts. All new rocket parts are replaced by BRS and then you assemble them. I have done a few and never sent a rocket part back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODowneyEng Posted July 20, 2018 Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 Sorry Jail is spelled Gaol on the otheside of the big pond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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