iaw4 Posted September 6, 2018 Report Share Posted September 6, 2018 I am thinking about buying a CTSW with the old 396 in it. pretty ugly, small, and expensive to keep up. I am wondering whether it is feasible to replace it not with an aera (better and cheaper in the long run than the 396), but with an iPad Pro 10.5, iPad, or iPad mini (even better and even cheaper). After the space for the transponder and the radio, how much space is left above them? is it easy to create a center console cutout to fit it well? is it legal to remove the 396 and add the iPad? I presume that iPad connections can be handled. presumably, ADS-B info can pipe in over WiFi, so I need only power. the autopilot may lose TRK navigation?! not sure. or, perhaps: are there iPad mounts for the center console that make it easy to swing the iPad downwards and yet be reasonably flush with the panel?! this way, I could even leave the existing avionix as backup. I would just have to have power brought out to it. the ipad would cover the useless part of the panel...well, normally useless, that is until I need a backup because the iPad dies. has anyone done something like this? if so, I would love a few pictures. and I would love more advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted September 10, 2018 Report Share Posted September 10, 2018 Unless you are adamant about using Garmin, you could at least consider the iFly 740b as an alternative to the Aera. It has a much larger screen, and several of us have done this upgrade with good results. Because of the screen size, you will probably have to shit your radio and transponder down in the panel a bit, depending on what you have installed and where. Overall it's not a very difficult installation (I did it myself since my airplane is experimental), and the 740b is $499 versus $749 for the Aera 660 with less than half the screen space. I don't think that anybody has does this upgrade and regretted it. If you have an autopilot, you don't want to use an iPad, because there's no way to drive your autopilot in GPS Nav mode with an iPad. If there's no AP involved, there might be some reasons to try an iPad, it would certainly make your panel unique. Just remember if you have an SLSA you will need an LOA/MRA from the factory before proceeding with any upgrade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iaw4 Posted September 10, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2018 I agreed. I am shifting to the 740b... /iaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted September 10, 2018 Report Share Posted September 10, 2018 3 minutes ago, iaw4 said: I agreed. I am shifting to the 740b... /iaw What's in your center panel? I know the iFly install is pretty easy when you have a Garmin radio and transponder in the bottom portion of the center panel. You might need to cut a new center blank. I think Tom Baker might have the measurements for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iaw4 Posted September 10, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2018 nothing yet. negotiating to buy a CTSW and immediately replace the center panel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted September 11, 2018 Report Share Posted September 11, 2018 4 hours ago, FlyingMonkey said: What's in your center panel? I know the iFly install is pretty easy when you have a Garmin radio and transponder in the bottom portion of the center panel. You might need to cut a new center blank. I think Tom Baker might have the measurements for it. I have some pre cut center panels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted September 11, 2018 Report Share Posted September 11, 2018 1 hour ago, Tom Baker said: I have some pre cut center panels. Tom's precut panel is what I used, but I didn't want to mention it in case he was out of them. It fit perfectly; you just have to move your Garmin radio and transponder down about 15mm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iaw4 Posted September 11, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2018 I would have the Bendix King radio and transponder. Would this make a difference? They seem to have the same dimensions (to within 0.05"). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warmi Posted September 11, 2018 Report Share Posted September 11, 2018 https://www.barnstormers.com/ad_manager/listing_images.php?id=1381095&ZOOM=true&offset=3 Thats the one ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iaw4 Posted September 11, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2018 pretty much caught me on this one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warmi Posted September 11, 2018 Report Share Posted September 11, 2018 Well there aren’t that many CTSW planes for sale with Bendix comms ... frankly, I think , atm exactly one Anyway seems like a decent deal ,still under 500 hours , hangared and the price is reasonable - well good luck, hopefully it works out for you.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iaw4 Posted September 11, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2018 I think this is a correct assessment. decent, maybe even good, but not great. I have no urgency and can wait, so I am not sure that iI should pull the trigger. I am still lusting after the $99k deal for a mid-old CTLSi...sigh. drop me a note if you see something that is a better deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted September 11, 2018 Report Share Posted September 11, 2018 Well...I think that would be a tougher upgrade. The radio & transponder look taller than the Garmin units, but I'm not 100% sure. And you'd have to relocate the Attitude Indicator/Autopilot head. That latter is the major issue, because there isn't anywhere else in that panel it would fit! You might be able to move that switch and light (whatever they are for) under the EFIS and put it there, but then you have to drill two new holes for those as well. Honestly, if it were me I'd put an Aera 660 in, because the dock is the exact size of the 396/496 dock. Plug and play. You'd spend more money in labor to move all that stuff around than you'd save by going to the iFly. I'd leave the 660 as backup and to drive the AP and display traffic/weather when you get ADS-B, and do all my navigating with the iPad (which is also what I do with my iFly). I prefer the iFly, but it doesn't make sense in that airplane, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iaw4 Posted September 11, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2018 thx. probably correct. pity, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BravoFoxtrot Posted September 11, 2018 Report Share Posted September 11, 2018 I agree with Andy that the 660 is the best option, but another way to go would be to contact TruTrak and see what it would cost to replace the ADI Autopilot with a Vizion head. You should be able to keep the servos and most of the wiring. If you get the 2 1/4" version, you could relocate it to the lower left corner where the switches currently are. Move the Carb/Cabin heat controls to the top of the glareshield and you will free up the center panel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iaw4 Posted September 12, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2018 this was option #2. I do not have the airplane, so I do not understand the Garmin-King differences. The King website suggests that their devices are *not* taller than the Garmin ones. If the Kings are larger, and we cannot use Tom's cutouts, option #2 seems effectively dead. as to the vizion, I think past posts mentioned about $1,200 for the head unit; and for this, I would get an emergency level button. I am wondering how useful this button is. When would one push it? (spin?) If it really were a good safety item, I would go with it. The install on the 740b may cost more, but the device itself is cheaper. I am not sure about the cost of the map updates. They used to be about $200/year. Have they gone down by now? If they are still this expensive, then the map update costs alone will pay for the installation. (The 740b has $70/year updates, and it is the better device..) /iaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted September 12, 2018 Report Share Posted September 12, 2018 The level button is for disorientation in inadvertent IMC. It would not do any good in a spin. iFly subscription is unlimited updates for $69.99 annually, a super good deal comparatively. Remember, the big stumbling block is the autopilot, not the radios. Even if you get a Vizion, you still have to put it somewhere. The only place I see is under the EFIS on left, which means you also have to move switch/light located there. Can it be done? Sure! It's just a lot of work. Just moving the radios down and fitting the new blank is a fair amount of work. Also, you'll have to move the heater controls too. FD sells a kit to do that, but you still have to cut into your panel, drill and paint the fiberglass relocation blank.... I just don't know if the iFly advantages over the Aera is worth all the work and re-engineering your entire panel. Maybe...you just have to ask your installer for a quote. Also, the Aera is not without advantages: 1) Garmin, so it will have support for many, many years. 2) The Aera has "wire aware" -- a wire database to alert you to some of the larger wire hazards. If you are like me and like flying around 1000ft AGL or lower, that could be very helpful. 3) I think Aera updates dropped to $99/yr, so the subscription price difference is not enormous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BravoFoxtrot Posted September 12, 2018 Report Share Posted September 12, 2018 Just looked on the Garmin website, $149.95/year for the US Database Bundle. I think that package is equivalent to the iFly subscription bundle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted September 12, 2018 Report Share Posted September 12, 2018 4 minutes ago, BravoFoxtrot said: Just looked on the Garmin website, $149.95/year for the US Database Bundle. I think that package is equivalent to the iFly subscription bundle. Whoops, sorry for the misinfo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BravoFoxtrot Posted September 12, 2018 Report Share Posted September 12, 2018 But your point is still valid. It would take MANY years to pay back the investment of installing the iFly when the difference in subscriptions is ($150-70) $80. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iaw4 Posted September 12, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2018 thx, Andy and BF. The vizion button does not seem very useful for me, even if I were to get into IMC. I have not flown much IMC, but I would always fly the AP at the first indication of IMC to begin with, in order to avoid disorientation. garmin makes it very difficult to find the map update pricing info. http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=136262 was my best source. yes, it did seem to drop from about $200 to about $150. So, about $80/year different. maybe worth $800 to me. if the auto-level button had been a great safety device, it would have been one thing. given that it is not, I will probably skip option #2, after all. /iaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BravoFoxtrot Posted September 12, 2018 Report Share Posted September 12, 2018 Try this link:https://fly.garmin.com/fly-garmin/support/pricing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BravoFoxtrot Posted September 12, 2018 Report Share Posted September 12, 2018 Buying an airplane and then investing in electronics to update the panel is usually not a good deal. Decide what it is you really want and include that in the purchase price calculation. You may be better off finding an aircraft that already has that equipment installed. Another thing to consider is if you are going to be flying in an area where ADS-B is needed, to either purchase an aircraft with that already installed, or plan on installing it soon after purchasing the plane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iaw4 Posted September 12, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2018 the nice part about this particular ctls is that it has the parachute, rocket, and rubbers just done. I would likely have to take care of some of these with other purchases, too. I would need ADS-B in and out. many used FD CTs do not have it installed yet (and I am only considering used). so, I count on needing ADS-B installed. it seems relatively straightforward now. I am guessing that the ADS-B will be about $1,500 to $2,000. at this point, I think the only unusual upgrade will be the 696. (I thought it would be relatively easy to go 740b instead, but it doesn't seem to be.) I am guessing that the 696 will be between $600 to $1,000 on ebay, the install with everything done and the hardware will be, what, another $1,000, for under $2k?! not yet sure. if it had been $500-$1,000 more to go 740b, I would have preferred the 740b. alas, this was not to be. Tom Baker would probably do the job, former(?) CTLS owner. waiting for final quotes. Am I better off waiting until something more suitable comes along? Any advice on this or other CTs would be highly appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted September 12, 2018 Report Share Posted September 12, 2018 5 hours ago, iaw4 said: if I were to get into IMC. I have not flown much IMC, but I would always fly the AP at the first indication of IMC The thing about inadvertent IMC is its inadvertent. You may find you choose to hand fly the CT quite a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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