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iaw4

500fpm, 60 knots, 15 degrees flaps

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Like on approach I'm all about forward stick and Andy is back.  Same on slips I use a lot of stick both flaperon and forward stab.  I don't have the speed control warning that Andy does.  I like my forward pressure better because my controls aren't positioned like I want to snap roll.

Other than snap rolls I see slips as spin protection and skids as asking for it.

Passengers aren't used to slips so flaps are the better choice.  You do need one or the other, or to modify your approach (my flaps where stuck at -12 for 4 months) or you have the getting/slowing down issue.

The other approach that I used when stuck at neg 12 is to simply fly for the numbers with cruise speed, allowing for some float and simply retarding the throttle to slow down to landing speed.  I'm talking about pointing the nose down to descend and not worrying about speed till I'm at the runway.

In the end, no matter what your config / approach if you can't get down, just put the nose down and get down first and slow down 2nd.

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BTW, for the final length question, I took this picture yesterday, just as I was about to turn base at my home airport, to give you an idea of how long my final is.  I estimate it's 1/4 to 1/3 mile or so:

OL4N5jX.jpg

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1 hour ago, Ed Cesnalis said:

Like on approach I'm all about forward stick and Andy is back.  Same on slips I use a lot of stick both flaperon and forward stab.  I don't have the speed control warning that Andy does.  I like my forward pressure better because my controls aren't positioned like I want to snap roll.

 

I'm not sure what you mean here.  Since I removed the additional pitch control spring that was installed in my CT, I need to trim the airplane very little, and I'm at pretty much neutral trim on final, so it doesn't take pressure one way or another.  That said, if I do have some bias in the trim I prefer to have to hold a little back pressure instead of forward pressure, it just feels more comfortable and natural to me.  If you mean in the slip, then yes you have to use back pressure or you'll be at 65kt by the time you get to the runway. 

What "speed control warning" are you referring to?  If you mean the wing drop in the slip, I guess so...but as I said I've never had that happen.  I watch the airspeed like a hawk when I'm doing low speed approaches (under 55kt at 15° or under 52kt at 30°).  I usually quit looking at airspeed and fly by feel in last 50ft or so. 

BTW, I never go to 30° flaps or more until I'm on final.  The glide distance at those high flaps settings really goes to hell, and I want to make sure I can make the runway if the big fan stops turning.  The airplane slows so fast at idle when you go from 15° to 30° that you don't lose anything by waiting.  

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20 minutes ago, FlyingMonkey said:

I'm not sure what you mean here.  Since I removed the additional pitch control spring that was installed in my CT, I need to trim the airplane very little, and I'm at pretty much neutral trim on final, so it doesn't take pressure one way or another.  That said, if I do have some bias in the trim I prefer to have to hold a little back pressure instead of forward pressure, it just feels more comfortable and natural to me.  If you mean in the slip, then yes you have to use back pressure or you'll be at 65kt by the time you get to the runway. 

What "speed control warning" are you referring to?  If you mean the wing drop in the slip, I guess so...but as I said I've never had that happen.  I watch the airspeed like a hawk when I'm doing low speed approaches (under 55kt at 15° or under 52kt at 30°).  I usually quit looking at airspeed and fly by feel in last 50ft or so. 

BTW, I never go to 30° flaps or more until I'm on final.  The glide distance at those high flaps settings really goes to hell, and I want to make sure I can make the runway if the big fan stops turning.  The airplane slows so fast at idle when you go from 15° to 30° that you don't lose anything by waiting.  

The approach trim difference came from before your spring removal.  That said, in a CTSW there is a pretty big trim change from 15 to 30 so I can't see how you can be pretty neutral.  For me to trim for 55kts and 30 its a big pitch change and a big trim change.

The speed warning I'm referring to is that when slipping you need back pressure.  On final at 30 and idle when I slip it takes a lot of forward stick.  

30* from downwind simplifies things, one pitch change, one trim change, hands off all the way in.  To insure you make the runway just adjust your pattern size like you would in any landing configuration in any plane.  Flaps don't make you come up short, that's judgement.

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47 minutes ago, Ed Cesnalis said:

The approach trim difference came from before your spring removal.  That said, in a CTSW there is a pretty big trim change from 15 to 30 so I can't see how you can be pretty neutral.  For me to trim for 55kts and 30 its a big pitch change and a big trim change.

The speed warning I'm referring to is that when slipping you need back pressure.  On final at 30 and idle when I slip it takes a lot of forward stick.  

30* from downwind simplifies things, one pitch change, one trim change, hands off all the way in.  To insure you make the runway just adjust your pattern size like you would in any landing configuration in any plane.  Flaps don't make you come up short, that's judgement.

After the spring removal, I think we still have trim differences.  At this point my airplane requires very little trim change, and my trim knob travel required has become a LOT less.  The total amount of trim change from full flaps and minimum speed to -6 flaps and 120kt+ is probably less than a half turn, maybe only a quarter.  If I adjust the trim, it's usually just a tiny touch.  If I add flaps at 30° it's only a few millimeters on the trim wheel.

My airport has crossing runways, not a single one like at Mammoth, and often there are multiples in use.  I don't like to fly across the middle of potentially active runway, so my downwind leg is a bit further out.  If I go to 30° before turning base and want to make the runway power off, I'd have  to turn base at the end of the runway and basically sweep a 180° turn.  even if that were not the case, a longer glide distance gives more options, and I don't want to give that up until necessary. 

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5 hours ago, Ed Cesnalis said:

Other than snap rolls I see slips as spin protection and skids as asking for it.

https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/aerodynamics/slip-skid-stall/

(however, the slip-skid difference seems to matter in turns, not on final when my direction is straight ahead and I want to lose altitude and speed in a hurry.)

 

I find the Dynon a bit too busy for taking a quick glance to get the airspeed and vertical speed.  This would make it safer/easier.  I wish I had a HUD with those two pieces of information---or be able to see it much more quickly---or have audible speed or AoA alerts.  This is why I am trying to build in more safety margin against a worst-case scenario than I should.

I don't believe the CTSW lends itself to stabilized approaches the same way that heavier airplanes do.  but I want to fly (smaller) corrections to the basis, not (bigger) corrections from start to end.  This is why I started this thread.  And everyone's point of view is highly appreciated.  For one, I have learned that there are many approaches to landing.

 

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I don't have as much time instructing in the CT as Eric, but I have quite a bit. You can make a stabilized approach, and it is not that hard. The biggest issue I have seen from people who have experience in other airplanes is that they try and fly the CT the same way, and most of the time it doesn't work. Unless you are flying a giant pattern you shouldn't be carrying power.

To get things sorted out I suggest that you pull the power to idle abeam the numbers. Fly the pattern with the flaps set to your desired setting. I prefer 15° for someone new to the airplane. Fly your approach. If you come in low either add power or fly a smaller pattern the next time around. If you come in high fly a bigger pattern the next time. The CT is a light clean aircraft, and you don't need to carry power in the pattern like you do with a heavier airplane. With 15° flaps use 60 kts on downwind and base. On final you can slow it to 55, especially if you are solo and light on fuel.

 

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Tom B, that is exactly what I did this eve... and your strategy, which was taught to me in the transition training, works the very best for me...

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