Wanted to buy CTLS

[JGray]

Hi guys,

First time poster here. I've been lurking around here for a few weeks and am in the early stages of acquiring my sport license and am looking to purchase a CTLS so I can do my training in the plane I plan to fly vs. a 172. I've looked in the for sale section here, barnstormers, and controller.com. There are a couple I found that I am interested in, but am looking to see what else might be out there before making any offers. 

Open to all years, hours, and equipment packages, but would prefer:

Led landing light

Tundra tires

Black interior (kind of a stickler on that as dumb as it is, can't stand tan interiors, unless someone knows if a color change is possible/economical)

2020 compliance (ads-b)

No damage history but open to minimal damage history, light prop strike with adequate repair documentation, or similar 

Red white and blue decal package

SkyView dual dynons 

Would prefer recent hose replacement, rocket replacement, chute repack, and annual

Engine heater/preheater/blanket

Tinted windows shades

Delivery possibilities (no license yet) to Northern Minnesota

If anyone is kicking around selling theirs and it isn't currently listed on any of the above sites, please let me know along with price. As far as price goes, the less expensive the better, I would love to be in the $60-$70k price range which would put me all in around $75k with my license and tax. This may not be realistic depending on a lot of factors (damage history being one of them), but I would be ready to make a deal on one right away should someone have one they would sell in that price range. I am open to at least considering any one up to $90k, especially if it checks all or most of the boxes above. 

Thanks to everyone on the forum and the administrators for having such a informational resource for these aircraft!

Feel free to text me at 218-324-0400, PM me, or post what you have here. Thanks for your time, Jon. 

 

 

 

[Warmi]

Not directly answering but have you flown a Flight Design plane yet ? 

They handle quite different than a 172 and this more sporty type of handling is not to some people liking ... not saying you wouldn’t but I have seen pilots swearing never again after flying a light sport on a windy day

[JGray]

Thanks for your input Warmi. No I have not, I will be going up in a 172 tomorrow for my first small plane flight in fact. Flying has been something I've dreamt about for my whole life, and at 32 years old I finally have the time and financial ability to get in the sport. I live in Northern Minnesota, not sure that any are up in this area, my CFI was not at all familiar with the brand. What you mentioned is one reason I would like an LS vs. an SW, stability from what I've read as well as being 6'2, for comfort. The cabin size, fuel consumption and Mogas capability, strutless wings, BRS system, and visibility are why I would like a Flight Design. From everything I've read they check all of those boxes, and I haven't found a model otherwise that does. This is also why I want to train in one, if that's what I learn in then I really won't know the difference between a full size anyway. Besides, all I am interested in pursuing at this point is my sport license, which is another reason for this plane. One reason I don't want to spend much more then my target above is that I am curious as to what will happen with the market for these when the FAA approves the 3600 LB limit for the LSA class. I can't help but think the current restricted LSA class aircraft will suffer in resale, but this is just my speculation. 

[Warmi]

That’s pretty much how I started in 2017 .... took about 20 hours worth of lesson in a Remos GX, soloed and the got my own LSA to finish my training in. To be frank , I think I was questioning myself first 5 to 10 hours , it was pretty tough , I was constantly behind the plane etc ...

2 years later, it has been a lot of fun and I do mean a lot of fun -  it is an expensive hobby for sure, but to me it is all worth the trouble - you damn live only once , that’s for sure, so why not make the most of it ..

 

 

 

[JGray]

I agree with ya Warmi. Just as well enjoy it and do as much as a person can in this life. Can't wait to get some hours in. I have no doubt it's difficult especially at first, but I do enjoy a challenge, like to be right on the edge of my fear comfort zone, and have always wanted to fly, so this adventure should fit that bill nicely. 

[KentWien]

You seem to be on the right track. I don’t think you’ll see any change in the CT market if the gross weight goes up, and here’s why:

Take a look at any airplane out there. Which one would you really want to own if it were in the light sport category?  For me, I just can’t find anything that’s as efficient, has the useful load, is fully depreciated and costs so little to operate. 

Went out for an hour today loitering around some scenic mountains before coming home to do landings with my girlfriend. Total fuel cost for an hour, mostly at 3 gallons an hour: $12. Cheapest way to enjoy the evening. 

 

[JGray]

Kent,

Your absolutely right about that. All of those factors are what brought me to wanting one of these specific planes. My CFI actually keeps trying to talk me into a PP instead of the Sport license and keeps suggesting finding an old Champ or 172, and after looking at about every high wing full size plane out there quite frankly their isn't one that I want that I could even come close to affording (I haven't looked at any I can't afford), and the few that I considered past initial viewing had high fuel consumption, ran on 100LL, were 40+ years old and very antiquated all around in my opinion, cabins that were not designed for a tall pilot such as myself, and most of which had visibility issues besides not having a safety system like these planes do. All of the research and looking at every make and model in my price range brings me right back to these and just persuing my sport license for now. Amazing pictures, I can't wait until that view is mine and my wife's in person. Thank you for your input Kent, I appreciate your view and taking the time to share it. Now just to get my hands on one

[Garrett Gee]

As others have said, a light sport definitely handles a bit differently than a traditional (heavier) single engine airplane. While flying the 172 might be good, it may be best to get as much of your training as possible in a light sport. I have loved my CTLS, but it look me a good 10-15 hours to transition to be able to confidently land the airplane with any wind (have 1800 hours in traditional single and multi engine airplanes). After that time, an a-ha moment struck me, and I can confidently land in a 15 knot gusty crosswind (don’t recommend this if you haven’t at least done some with an instructor who has some CT time). 

Overall, the operating costs of the CT are what ultimately led me to buying it. It is a factor of 3 times cheaper to operate, all things considered like mx, fuel, etc. over a Cessna 172, and cruises at a slightly higher speed to boot, plus it has much better avionics than you would likely find in a 172 if you have the dynons.  I have been very happy with mine (had it about 6 months). Besides from the occasional small things you find (which this community is really good to help out with), the airplane is very dependable and great for  not only local fun flying, but also has the capability to be a cross country machine.

One thing to note though, if you can afford the extra training costs and can spare the extra time you have to put in it, a PPL will remove some of the SP restrictions, and you will still be able to fly a light sport airplane. If you ever think you might want to use the PPL privileges, it may be best to go ahead and get the PPL while you have your mind set to training mode. Just my 2 cents as a CFI.

[JGray]

Thanks for your input Garrett, I agree, I would like to get the vast majority of my training in a LS, since that is what I plan to fly. The economics of these planes is one of the big reasons I would like one. As far as sticking with a SP license, we'll see how the training goes, I think for me personally as of right now the restrictional differences between the SP and PP don't justify the extra time or cost, the way I'm looking at it for now is the most economical way to get in the air in the aircraft I would like, and would rather put the extra money towards the plane vs training. This may change as I develop my skills in the sport, but the restrictions of the SP are just fine in my book, as of right now I have no desire to fly into a major airport, with more then 1 passenger, work for hire, or to fly with limited visibility, at night or into international airspace. I am apprehensive for the C4 to come out, and you never know down the road, but for now I think I'll stick with the SP. I do agree about while being in training mode and having everything fresh that now would be the best time to do the full PP, I'm just not real sure I would ever use it to my advantage anyhow vs. the SP. Thank you for your input. 

[JGray]

Also, if someone might care to explain a few things to me as the search continues. Please do the best you can to explain them in laymens terms, as I'm not yet up to snuff on all the terminology and acronyms. 

Questions:

Difference between the 1 7" dynon screen with all analog gauges on the right side, dual 7" screens, and the dual 10" (SkyView?) setup. Do all of these have autopilot built in? I see some listed with synthetic vision as well and some without. I understand what SV is now, but which screen setups have SV and AP? Any major downsides to the most basic package? Cost and hassle to upgrade to the SkyView system? 

Anyone know if FD sells the leather upholstery to do an interior color change?

LS model year differences/updates/upgrades, if any?

Cost and hassle to convert to a Tundra tire setup if not equipped?

ADS-b upgrade/update cost to each gauge package, if different?

Any other must haves in your guys opinions?

Thanks to everyone for your time, through all the reading I've done on here and the responses I've gotten the CT family on here are really helpful and friendly compared to some automotive forums I've seen. 

[Duane Jefts]

The 10 inch skyview is really good.  To convert to ADS-B it is only a different antenna - $600 from Dynon. The skyview systems I have seen have a Dynon autopilot operated from the screen soft keys.  Also map updates are free as opposed to Garmin equipment where you have to pay for a subscription. The skyview system shows TFR's and weather among many other things.

I highly recommend the skyview system.

[SportFlyer1]

The typical layout for a 'mature' CTLS is two 7" Dynons with maybe a Garmin 696 or 496 in the center. The AP will be slaved to the GPS and I have found the AP to be a wonderful thing for cross country flying. The difference between the older 7" Dynon and the newer 10" is more than screen size. The 7" which I have will give you all the flight instruments including an artificial horizon. The 10" gives that and includes  GPS functions, radio functions, ADS-B and more. The electronic hardware is completely different from the older, so it's an expensive PITA to switch. That said, the 7"ers with the 696 are all a person could ever need for flying and navigation. Planes so equipped are very nicely priced too.

I received my sport training in a low wing Evektor, then bought a CTLS. The change was dramatic, the CTLS has required me to be a better pilot, but I came along kicking and screaming. I suggest some CFI time early in your CT career from a person well versed with the CT or light sport in general. I didn't and it took me 30 hours of frustration before I waved the white flag and took a BFR with a CT CFI. Since then its been all fun and no drama, what a difference.

Anyhow, enjoy your training and pick any CT you like, they are all fun.

[Warmi]

Was the change between CTLS and Evektor really that dramatic ? 

I am just curious why would it be so different ... was it the issue of spring loaded controls ? 

[JGray]

Thank you for the valuable input Duane & Sportflyer. Due to my location, training with someone familiar with a CT specifically really isn't a possibility as far as I know. I know these guys had a 150 Cessna they sold due to a low demand to rent it, I had mentioned previously that my CFI is not familiar with the brand but I don't actually know that for sure, the owner of the small company I have been dealing with isn't familiar with the FD brand or CT line at all (also a CFI but I will be doing my training with the other guy there). I will find out tonight if my actual CFI has ever flown in a CT or at least a high wing light sport, but I am assuming that he isn't familiar either, otherwise the other CFI would have at least heard some feedback on it, I would think, as from my understanding they have been working together for quite some time. Very friendly and patient guys at any rate, just with our population here the demand isn't there to develop the LSA class, therefore they would have no reason to look into these or any LSA much, which I completely understand. From what I know my CFI has flown many different aircraft, is seasoned, with tons of hours logged. But I also understand these are different aircraft from most, all I can do without taking time off work and traveling for training is put my faith in his experience and see how it goes. 

[Tom Baker]

There used to be a Flight Design distributor in Minnesota. I think if you check around you might find a CT CFI in the Minneapolis area.

I think most of the CTLS in your price range will have the Dynon D100/120 combos. The Skyview equipped airplanes are going to be a little more expensive. The typical autopilot for the older airplanes is TruTrak, the later Skyview airplanes could have either Dynon or TruTrak autopilots. They all work well.

There are changes along the way. The first 35-40 CTLS have a different aileron control system. Personally I don't like the early system. 2009-2010 the Skyview was introduced, and the switch to Matco wheels and brakes. There was also a change in seat design. Also along that time frame the interior switched from the grey speckled to a solid tan or grey finish. Changing the control sticks, stick boots and seat covers would be easy for the early speckled interiors.

I know people like their tundra tires, but I am not a fan if you are flying on hard surface. For the CTLS it is basically different main tires and different wheel pants. I haven't checked prices, but I would guess around $1500. 

[JLang]

I don't want to sound like I am trying to convince you of something you don't want, but if you plan to do much cross country flying, I have found PPL to be quite beneficial for the relatively small amount of extra time and money.  I chose my CTSW over legacy aircraft for the same reasons you list, but also find myself fairly frequently flying at night, and also surprisingly often over 10k', usually to clear clouds or when over water.  Also, during the winter here in Michigan with lousy weather, flying at night after work is often the only chance I have to shake of the rust; I might wait a month for good weekend daytime weather.

My CFI was also unfamiliar with the CTSW.  I arranged it so he accompanied me to pick it up, and before we left, we BOTH took several hrs of dual with a local CFI who was familiar with the plane.

[SportFlyer1]

One oddity of my training was that nobody was sure where light sport left off and private pilot began. My CFI studied up on it and had a pretty good grasp of the light sport rules. However my DPE was a little less certain. In the end I had about 50 hours (and $10k) when I took the test and outside of night flight, there wasn't much difference with my training and PPL. Also during training I had month long dead spots when the one sport plane they had went into the shop. For PPL we would have just switched to another plane.

The Evektor is a fine plane. Each plane has its quirks, my Evektor was a delight in the sky and a witch on the ground, due to very very sensitive nosewheel steering. My plane was pranged twice on the ground during my training (not by me), one was an airline pilot. Also I found it challenging to land because it sat so low to the ground it seemed like my butt would scrape the concrete, and of course rollout was exciting because of the steering and toe brakes. The CT as a high wing mean't that I had to throw out some of my aiming points in the pattern and get used to losing sight of the runway in turns. It sits higher on its gear, which I liked better, but its love of floating made it a challenge to get on the ground. The springs and the autopilot servo load on the controls do take some getting used to, the ailerons are quite stiff on my plane.  So each plane has a personality and once you get used to it, it's no longer an issue that's all.

[AGLyme]

Kent, very nice photos, thank you for sharing.

Get the PPL... JLang is correct, if you plan on Cross Country flying... 10,000+ feet and Night Flying may be a possibility.

The FD does fly/land differently, like a Cub or Piper Cherokee fly differently.  Eventually, a civilian like me got it down.  Just takes practice.  The Dealer taught me how to land properly, he then taught my local CFI and my local CFI picked up on the FD characteristics very quickly.  Suggest you research this forum for FD landing do's and dont's... very helpful from the best veterans in FD-ville.

Have fun in your search, as a recent buyer, I can tell you that it will be worth it.  A great great plane.

[JGray]

Thank you to everyone who has responded so far, I really appreciate you taking the time to share your input and experiences. I'm still on the fence about the PPL, but I may end up going that route as my CFI has never completed a SPL for a student, only a PPL, which tends to make me think I will have a similar experience to yours SportFlyer, so I probably should just go for the PPL. I may be stuck going with a PPL anyway as this is a very convenient place for me to complete this (assuming they do not want to do the research to train for a SPL only), and I can see your points as well JLang and AGLyme as I am in Northern MN which with a SPL would mean not much flying during the winter months, and my plan once I make a deal on a plane to attempt to get my CFI to come with and pick it up. Sounds like the best bet would be a 2009 and up, so that's what I will try to hold out for. Thanks for sharing those differences Tom. It also sounds like I will likely need to spend closer to the $100k mark for what I am looking for, hopefully with the PPL and tax I can be all in at $100k flat, at least that is my goal, which puts my budget somewhere in the neighborhood of $85k for the plane itself. The ceiling was too low for a ride today with my CFI, so hopefully next week as the weather the rest of this doesn't look to be co-operative.

Thanks again everyone for all the input and keep it coming. No other owners out there looking to part with their LS?

 

 

[JGray]

I don't even know how to vote either way so can't help you there Bravo 

[Tom Baker]

11 hours ago, JGray said:

 Sounds like the best bet would be a 2009 and up, so that's what I will try to hold out for.

I would say mid 2008. You should be good with serial numbers F08-06-** and after. If the airplane is a F08-05** it might be worth taking a look at the change I think was made mid month.

 

[JGray]

That's excellent information, thank you Tom for sharing. 

[AGLyme]

JGray, the good news is that if you did spend $100k, the FD retains value well compared to most other LSA's.  

[Tom Baker]

I spoke to a young lady from Lewis University this afternoon. They have a CTLS that was donateded to them to use in thei flight training program. They are now going in a different direction. I have worked on and flown the airplane before it was donated. It might be just what you are looking for. I think they are deciding whether to sell as is, or do the rubber replacement and parachute. 

[JGray]

AGLyme that does appear to be the case, which is great. That sounds very promising Tom, do you have contact information for her that you could PM me?