Chris S. Posted April 16, 2019 Report Share Posted April 16, 2019 Hi everyone, Been lurking for awhile and recently decided that a CTLS would fit my needs almost perfectly (two people, VFR for fun, usually < 500 nm, want modern safety features). I'm of course posting looking for any interesting leads but I also have a few questions which maybe folks could help with: What sort of pre-buy do people normally do for a CTLS? Any recommendations on people or outfits to contact? Can anyone recommend a CFI around San Jose that has CTLS experience? I expect insurance will want a checkout + a few hours minimum. Almost all of my flight hours are in a Diamond Katana or a Citabria so I suspect it will be an easy transition. Are there any gotchas to look for? I see some models that have had a landing gear replaced but the consensus here seems to be that's not a big deal. Anything else I should be on the lookout for? I see some CTLS on the market with the D100 and some with the Skyview. People who have used both, is the Skyview worth a premium? Any owners can you post your empty weight and/or useful load? I think I'm fine here but I'd love to get an idea what real world numbers people have. For my search I'd probably like to stay under $100k so I think that rules out a CTLSi. There are a few 2009-2011 CTLS on Barnstormers right now that I will probably follow up on but if anyone has other possibilities I would love to hear about them. Thanks for the help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oceanplexian Posted April 16, 2019 Report Share Posted April 16, 2019 I am a new owner of a -SW, and I think I got a great deal. I also got to fly a CTLS It has some quirks but I think most airplanes do. Not all my answers will be totally accurate since I'm a newbie at this, but this was my experience: 1. I had a local mechanic do a pre-buy. He was not a CT expert but he had experience working with the Rotax 912, and had worked on a few other light sport aircraft. The plane also had detailed write ups from Rex Johnson, and some expensive maintenance items completed: a Rotax Rubber Change, and a Parachute Repack in the last year. The airplane was also regularly flown, and run primarily on ethanol-free auto gas. I looked at 2-3 other aircraft. The others were terrible in comparison. Shoddy logs or damage history, the price wasn't right, or they were experimental (Not a dealbreaker, but it brought up concerns). 2. Can't answer #2 but there are a few places you can travel to to get CTLS training. There is one in Arizona (Copper City Aviation), I took some training at a flight school in Colorado Springs as well. If you plan to spend that much it's worth flying somewhere to get it. There may be many more options in NorCal but I don't know of them. The time to start getting transition training is now. That way when you purchase your plane you can fly it home, without being tempted to make bad decisions. 3. These may not be common gotchas but they were mine: I seem to have a lot of electrical gremlins. They are easy to fix, and not safety-of-flight issues, but for example the engine reading oil pressure PSI when it's on the ground and the engine is cold. Or random (Once in a blue moon) CHT alarms seconds after starting that self-clear, or alternator noise in the headsets- things like that. A lot of these are grounding issues or loose connections. From my light research they seem to be common, and easily fixed. Bigger gotchas are- does the plane look level on a flat surface (might indicate bent gear if it's aluminum). Check the logs. Does the engine have the 2000hr TBO extension? Is there any composite damage or signs of delamination? Any flat spots on the tires? What's the history? Was it hangared? Lastly: When you go look at the plane, get the cowling off. Do the hoses look cracked? Are there areas where they look squeezed? Any wires loose? Does anything look off? Random gotcha- more of a post-buy thing, but if you bounce a go-around, even gently, the landing gear has a tendency to vibrate a bit. It doesn't mean it's damaged or that you're a bad pilot, but it's a light aircraft and much different than a C172 or Diamond, and the first time it will raise your heart rate a bit. You really need to slow down on final. It will also kick your a** in turbulence. The plane will handle it fine, but you may not. In exchange for the sacrifice calm days are incredible, these planes are so maneuverable and fun to fly. 4. I have the D100 and it is a great system. In the center console I have a Garmin 796, which has XM weather and all the goodies. I also have the Trutrak linked up to it which is a great luxury. It seems like there are a wide variation of GPS systems installed, and some owners have upgraded them. I would strongly insist you find a plane with an AP. One downside to the Garmin is that they charge like $100-200 a year to keep the database up to date, while I've heard Dynon is free. 5. My -SW has like a 600LB useful load. The LS's with the Skyview have a bit less. Not saying you shouldn't do your W&B by the book, and you definitely should avoid egregiously loading the plane, but it will still climb at 500 FPM with two large adults, full fuel, and baggage. These planes are in a whole other class than standard aircraft, and with only me and half fuel I'm regularly seeing 800-1000FPM at 4000ft. elevation. It smokes the old 172s and Cherokees I used to fly. Good luck! Andreas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGLyme Posted April 16, 2019 Report Share Posted April 16, 2019 great write-up, thx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SportFlyer1 Posted April 16, 2019 Report Share Posted April 16, 2019 As owner of a CTLS, I would second that writeup by oceanplexian. My empty weight is 792 which yields a useful of 528. It doesn't seem to notice the loading, so whatever you can squeeze into it is ok. My panel is the D100/120 which are fine for flying, but I yearn for Skyviews. The TruTrak AP is driven by the Garmin 696 and it is a real luxury to have. The 696 is a fountain of information that navigated us from Tulsa to Phoenix with no problem. Garmin is a pain to deal with, but I update the maps every other year or so in an effort to economize. I back it up with the Avare phone app and sometimes a tablet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris S. Posted April 16, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2019 Thank you @oceanplexian for the really detailed writeup and @SportFlyer1 for the follow up. This is very helpful. I see a couple CTLS on Barnstormers right now that I think I will follow up on. Some other questions since this has helped so much: does anyone have any finance and/or insurance recommendations? The initial rate quote I got from AOPA is low enough that I think I'll finance most of this rather than go with cash but it would be nice to see if there are recommendations for places people have personal experience with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGLyme Posted April 16, 2019 Report Share Posted April 16, 2019 Call this guy... CT Smart, reasonably priced, and excellent service. Andrew Gregg Ellsworth Aviation Insurance Resources (AIR) P.O. BOX 32 | Frederick, MD 21705 Toll Free 877-247-7767 | Fax 301-682-9793 Ph 301-682-6200 gellsworth@air-pros.com | www.air-pros.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
okent Posted April 17, 2019 Report Share Posted April 17, 2019 Chris, I just bought the 2008 CTLS at Airtime Aviation(Tom Gutmann). That experience has been great so far. All of my previous flight time was in a Diamond DA20 and it handles very similarly. The amount of force to move the stick in flight is higher but I think it's fine. If you can land the Diamond you won't have trouble with the CTLS and the autopilot is fantastic. That's about all I can comment on but so far I'm happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy A Posted April 19, 2019 Report Share Posted April 19, 2019 I have a 2014 CTLSi with the Skyview monitors and Garmin 796. When I was shopping, I originally thought only the Dynon D100 system was in my budget. After flying with the Sykview's, I will easily say they are worth the premium, if it is within a reasonable amount. Also the fuel injected engine is worth the premium. It is awesome to only have to deal with the one throttle handle and not worry about leaning the engine. Also keep in mind, with the ADSB 2020 mandate coming up fast, it may cost more to upgrade the Dynon D100 system to meet the requirement than the Sykview. You'll need to consider that in your cost analysis. I would not buy one without an autopilot. All of these things make the CTLSi the easiest airplane I have ever flown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warmi Posted April 19, 2019 Report Share Posted April 19, 2019 Generally , major avionics updates like d100>skyview are incredibly expensive , unless you can do it yourself ie. ELSA - we are talking here 20-25 k easily if you take it to an avionics shop. The way I see it , the time to take crate of it is when you are buying a plane and the plane is already equipped with some fancy glass and you can negotiate down the price ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WmInce Posted April 19, 2019 Report Share Posted April 19, 2019 Almost 5 years ago, when I bought my CTSW (coming from glass environment), before I even took delivery, I had Jeremy MacGregor install Dynon Skyviews and Matco wheels and brakes. He did a great job and I never looked back. Best thing I ever did to that airplane. IMHO, worth every penny. JM Aero Service & Repair Byron, CA (209) 481-5881 sjm_aeroservice@yahoo.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted April 19, 2019 Report Share Posted April 19, 2019 3 hours ago, WmInce said: Almost 5 years ago, when I bought my CTSW (coming from glass environment), before I even took delivery, I had Jeremy MacGregor install Dynon Skyviews and Matco wheels and brakes. He did a great job and I never looked back. Best thing I ever did to that airplane. IMHO, worth every penny. JM Aero Service & Repair Tracy, CA. (209) 481-5881 sjm_aeroservice@yahoo.com Jeremy has moved to Byron, CA When I did my panel like this Dynon's units were still primative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WmInce Posted April 19, 2019 Report Share Posted April 19, 2019 Okay Ed, thanks for the update on Jeremy’s location. I’ll make that edit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris S. Posted April 23, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2019 Thanks everyone again for the awesome help and discussion. I've gone from "this is an idea" to "cash in hand ready to buy" and I think I'm going to try to find something with Skyview already installed. There are a couple nice looking examples on Barnstormers at the moment so I'm going to try to pursue those first, but if anyone has an unlisted lead I'd love to hear about it. Also, how do folks normally relocate the plane once it's bought? It seems like the ideal thing would be to find a CFI who is willing to ferry it with you to get some CFI time in training and get the plane where it needs to go. Failing that it looks like I will probably need to travel for some CTLS specific training and then likely find a ferry pilot as I don't think I'd be comfortable flying across the country solo in a new to me airplane. I saw an old thread where someone mentioned a name for a CFI who will help with ferrying but if anyone has other names please let me know here or via PM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warmi Posted April 24, 2019 Report Share Posted April 24, 2019 When I bought my Sting I was still a student pilot so paid a CFi ( provided by the dealer ) to ferry the plane to my place ( 4 hours flight) and then paid for his lodging and his time to spend a weekend with me flying and practicing etc . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
okent Posted April 24, 2019 Report Share Posted April 24, 2019 As I posted above I just bought a CTLS and am using a CFI who routinely ferries these across the country for delivery, also recommended by the dealer. I like his instruction style and can give you the name if you'd like. If it's an issue with the mods to post in the open forum just let me know and I can PM you. The only down side is that he would be out of pocket for my flight lessons! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris S. Posted September 3, 2019 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2019 Just to close this out, I am now the proud owner of a beautiful 2011 CTLS. I had some help from the amazing @coppercity to ferry it to my home field in San Jose and learn how to be ready to keep learning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
okent Posted September 3, 2019 Report Share Posted September 3, 2019 Congratulations Chris! Looks great! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WmInce Posted September 3, 2019 Report Share Posted September 3, 2019 Congratulations! Have fun and learn on . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coppercity Posted September 4, 2019 Report Share Posted September 4, 2019 Looks great in its new home Chris! Have fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Lane Posted September 4, 2019 Report Share Posted September 4, 2019 On 4/19/2019 at 6:16 AM, Andy A said: I have a 2014 CTLSi with the Skyview monitors and Garmin 796. When I was shopping, I originally thought only the Dynon D100 system was in my budget. After flying with the Sykview's, I will easily say they are worth the premium, if it is within a reasonable amount. Also the fuel injected engine is worth the premium. It is awesome to only have to deal with the one throttle handle and not worry about leaning the engine. Also keep in mind, with the ADSB 2020 mandate coming up fast, it may cost more to upgrade the Dynon D100 system to meet the requirement than the Sykview. You'll need to consider that in your cost analysis. I would not buy one without an autopilot. All of these things make the CTLSi the easiest airplane I have ever flown. Heads up, the carbureted versions of the CT which run the Rotax 912ULS do not have to worry about any leaning. Just running carb heat occasionally if conditions permit carb icing. No mixture control. When I bought mine in June, there was a 10-20k premium for injected models, I realized I was unlikely to recoup that in fuel anytime soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
okent Posted September 4, 2019 Report Share Posted September 4, 2019 One other point, I have the D100 and checked with Dynon about upgrading to the Skyview. They quoted 7K plus labor which I thought wasn't unreasonable. To stay with the D100 it was 4k which included a lithium battery. I just couldn't justify double the price so I stayed with the D100 option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SportFlyer1 Posted September 6, 2019 Report Share Posted September 6, 2019 She's a beauty Chris, congratulations. The D100 is surprisingly capable. Recently I dove into the manual and found even more things it does that I didn't know about. Together with the 696 and AP you'll have all you need Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sully209 Posted September 16, 2019 Report Share Posted September 16, 2019 Congrats Chris ! You will enjoy your time with the CT. If you ever find yourself in the Central Valley let me know and I will buy you a cup of coffee. Best Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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