Wind and gust risks - minimums

[Ben2k9]

Hey everybody,

I have just started a flying club and one of the planes will be my CTLS. So as I’ve come to learn, one of the biggest risks with LSAs is wind. If I were to create a wind conditions guideline, say a green light for wind/gust conditions at or under “x” for all pilots, and then a yellow light for “y” conditions to exercise caution/more advanced pilots only, and then a red light for conditions “z” which means no go, what would conditions  x y and z be?

Appreciate any input on this one.  Members will range from students to highly experienced.

 

 

[Roger Lee]

This is very pilot dependent. 

[WmInce]

1 hour ago, Roger Lee said:

This is very pilot dependent. 

+1

[Ed Cesnalis]

Defining minimums for CT handling is like the Supreme Court defining pornography in order to ban it.  There are no good words to use here however when the pilot does exceed, he'll know it.

Quote

Due to light operating weights and low minimum flight speeds of Light Sport Aircraft, operations with surface winds in excess of 46 kmh / 25 kts should not be attempted

That's from my POH and its somewhat reasonable for departures but less useful for landings.  I recently totaled my CT taxiing with a 10 kt quartering tail wind and I have landed and taxied in excess of 35 kts with no issues. Handling a CT is about having a given skill set but there is a luck component as well.

Minimum speed landings are very important yet CT pilots can never agree on that. The risk of losing control due to a gust on roll out is real but not persuasive to those that land faster.   Flap settings fall into the same category, CT pilots will never agree that landing flaps should be used to make minimum speed landings the norm because they can't agree on minimum speed.

The one issue that we all agree on and will save your butt is the instant response the Rotax gives to a suddenly fire walled throttle.  Everyone in the club can be on this page too.

Know that the club member(s) who is going to be the poor CT pilot likely shows it already by flying with his feet flat on the floor.  The guy that doesn't know what the rudder does will need special encouragement and follow up and training.

[WmInce]

Ideally, I like to land at minimum speed, under control.

I would rather land faster than minimum speed, under control . . . rather than . . . land at minimum speed, out of control.

And then . . . there is always the option of go-around . . . to start over . . and land at minimum speed, under control.

[Ed Cesnalis]

44 minutes ago, WmInce said:

I would rather land faster than minimum speed, under control . . . rather than . . . land at minimum speed, out of control.

Really sorry if I'm hijacking your thread but I have to ask about Bill's statement.

Bill,  we have talked about 'crisp' vs 'mushy' but not loss of control.  If you our out of control then it is not a minimum speed landing. The definition of minimum speed landing depends on 'control'.  

 

[WmInce]

29 minutes ago, Ed Cesnalis said:

Really sorry if I'm hijacking your thread but I have to ask about Bill's statement.

Bill,  we have talked about 'crisp' vs 'mushy' but not loss of control.  If you our out of control then it is not a minimum speed landing. The definition of minimum speed landing depends on 'control'.  

Concur.

I was comparing the extremes.

[FlyingMonkey]

My POH says something to the effect that ground operations should not be attempted with winds over 25kt.  It does say "should" and not "must", so it's a judgment thing, though it might lead to an uncomfortable conversation with the FAA/NTSB.  I have landed with wind gusting up to 32kt, but I was already in the air and didn't have much choice but to land.

[Garrett Gee]

14 hours ago, FlyingMonkey said:

My POH says something to the effect that ground operations should not be attempted with winds over 25kt.  It does say "should" and not "must", so it's a judgment thing, though it might lead to an uncomfortable conversation with the FAA/NTSB.  I have landed with wind gusting up to 32kt, but I was already in the air and didn't have much choice but to land.

Same.  I can say (rather sheepishly) that I have handled some forecasted but conveniently arrived earlier than forecasted wind shear in a CTLS.  Was a 40 degree crosswind at 12 gusting to 28.  It took a lot of control input/movement in all four (pitch, roll, yaw, throttle) axes (a go-around and several explicatives were also needed).  The CTLS and the Rotax performed like a champ, and easily and happily climbed out without any hesitation. I would like to not do that again, but I am confident that if I found myself in that scenario, the CTLS could handle it. As others have said, it takes serious "stick and rudder" (literal) skills to handle.  Flap settings can also have an impact in gusting/windy conditions.  Personally, I really have to start "working it" when the crosswinds get above 10 knots, or when the gust factor is 6 knots and above.  Anything below that with a sunny day, and I am happy.

[FlyingMonkey]

I can say that if you keep the flaps to 15° (or even 0°) the CT will handle a tremendous amount on wind on landing.  I'm more worried about taxiing in those winds that getting the airplane down, especially if you can find a runway into the wind.

[WmInce]

34 minutes ago, FlyingMonkey said:

I can say that if you keep the flaps to 15° (or even 0°) the CT will handle a tremendous amount on wind on landing.  I'm more worried about taxiing in those winds that getting the airplane down, especially if you can find a runway into the wind.

Me too.

What’s more . . . there is a marked difference between steady state winds and gusts. I think the worst winds to deal with, especially with light sport airplanes, are gusty crosswinds.That withstanding, I think the little CT handles landing winds very well.

[Ben2k9]

Good stuff - thanks everyone