Landing in Crosswinds Gusting Over 20?

[TheFrisco]

I learned to fly in Maui, and yes I am very green and very new, gentle please  ... My question is about landing the CTLS in strong crosswinds which we commonly have here in Maui, a day gusting over 20 is just another day here. Given the lightweight of this fun plane, are there different limitations to for example a 172 which I learned on and fly? How does she handle in those stronger conditions?

Thanks and if there are posts around this already, would appreciate just a link to it,

Robert aka TheFrisco

[Garrett Gee]

I have done it (unforecasted windshear) and it is a challenge. Handled a gust up to 28 knots about 40 degrees off the runway. Wasn’t fun. Wasn’t the best landing,, the but CT shook it off.

The AOI does suggest anything over 25 (I believe it is 25) and the aircraft really should not even be taxied. I will say the CTLS does handle the winds, but the light loading and aerodynamic profile of the plane really makes gusty winds a challenge. With light sport in general, the aircraft are bit touchy on landing compared to heavier/certified aircraft.

I have learned it is better to be a couple knots slow on approach than a couple knots fast in the CT, because the airplane just wants to fly. Gusting winds generally mean you want to fly a faster than normal approach, which means there is a very fine balance in gusty winds.

I am by no means saying don’t go, but I also am not saying go for it either. Your should fly on a less windy day if able (with a knowledgeable instructor) and see what your personal minimums are. I have found above a 17 knot crosswind, or more than a 10 knot gust, is where I throw in the towel.

Edit: For context, I have about 70 hours in the CT and about 2000 total in various other aircraft, so if you are less experienced, your minimums may be way below mine.

[207WF]

One trick is to check on final how much rudder you have left.  I think I run out of rudder with flaps 15 when the crosswind is 25 knots.  Anything less than that is pretty easy.

WF

[TheFrisco]

22 minutes ago, 207WF said:

One trick is to check on final how much rudder you have left.  I think I run out of rudder with flaps 15 when the crosswind is 25 knots.  Anything less than that is pretty easy.

WF

Thanks for that, very helpful. And is it true that without flaps it can take even more in case it's gusting?

[coppercity]

Definitely 0 flaps, 70 KIAS on final in crosswinds that are gusty and above 15 kts direct.  I find the CT runs out of aileron a little sooner then running out of rudder.  Most importantly keep flying all the way back to the hanger, many make the mistake of letting crosswind corrections out after touchdown which starts the aircraft drifting downwind.  

Always willing to come out to HI. if you need some dual

 

 

[AGLyme]

I find the CT runs out of aileron a little sooner then running out of rudder.

Eric, I agree with the above.  In addition, in the early stages of flying the CT, I would hit my legs with the stick when the the winds were goofy and my body was tight.  When landing now, I consciously move the my legs as far left and right prior to Final.  The 70 Knots, is that in the CTLS?  Most of the handling advice out of this forum is for the CTSW... thank you in advance.

[coppercity]

18 hours ago, AGLyme said:

I find the CT runs out of aileron a little sooner then running out of rudder.

The 70 Knots, is that in the CTLS?  Most of the handling advice out of this forum is for the CTSW... thank you in advance.

Yes, CTLS, 70Kias on final, crossing the threshold at 65 kias minimum with 0 flaps works well in higher crosswinds in my experience. 

[AGLyme]

Thank you.  I need more experience with 0 degs flaps landings. 

[FlyingMonkey]

As  a counterpoint:

Just my preference, but I don’t like landings at zero flaps.  The airplane wants to sink fast at surprisingly high speeds, and the touchdown speeds are high enough that the roll out can be squirrelly, especially in high or gusty winds.

This is not to say you should not make 0 flaps landings, just that you should try them and see how they work for you.  They are just not my cup of tea.

[coppercity]

2 minutes ago, FlyingMonkey said:

As  a counterpoint:

Just my preference, but I don’t like landings at zero flaps.  The airplane wants to sink fast at surprisingly high speeds, and the touchdown speeds are high enough that the roll out can be squirrelly, especially in high or gusty winds.

This is not to say you should not make 0 flaps landings, just that you should try them and see how they work for you.  They are just not my cup of tea.

It is interesting how the CT has a higher rate of descent with no flaps then with flaps applied, its counter-intuitive for those folks coming from Cessna and Piper but those flaps on the CT make a lot of lift, have a low flap operating speed and when combined with the drooping aileron mix just work different.

[FlyingMonkey]

2 minutes ago, coppercity said:

It is interesting how the CT has a higher rate of descent with no flaps then with flaps applied, its counter-intuitive for those folks coming from Cessna and Piper but those flaps on the CT make a lot of lift, have a low flap operating speed and when combined with the drooping aileron mix just work different.

Agreed.  There are quite a few aspects of CT performance and handling that are a bit unconventional or unusual.

[mikey70]

I would also say be prepared to go around if you don't like the way things are going. Gusty conditions are frequently intermittent and/or changing directions which means your 2nd approach may be a piece of cake. I recently took a long cross country and when I stopped for fuel there was a very gusty crosswind with peak gust at the maximum crosswind component. At the moment of touchdown it was just a straight crosswind with no gusts and it was an easy landing with rudder and aileron correction. In the FBO there was a 182 pilot who was waiting out the gusty conditions before departing and he asked me how I managed to get that "little thing" on the runway? As mentioned here previously, keep flying the airplane all the way to the tie down. 

[Andy]

On 10/16/2019 at 11:03 PM, coppercity said:

Yes, CTLS, 70Kias on final, crossing the threshold at 65 kias minimum with 0 flaps works well in higher crosswinds in my experience. 

This is what I do in the CTSW and it works well.

[Andy]

On 10/18/2019 at 8:52 AM, mikey70 said:

I would also say be prepared to go around if you don't like the way things are going. Gusty conditions are frequently intermittent and/or changing directions which means your 2nd approach may be a piece of cake. I recently took a long cross country and when I stopped for fuel there was a very gusty crosswind with peak gust at the maximum crosswind component. At the moment of touchdown it was just a straight crosswind with no gusts and it was an easy landing with rudder and aileron correction. In the FBO there was a 182 pilot who was waiting out the gusty conditions before departing and he asked me how I managed to get that "little thing" on the runway? As mentioned here previously, keep flying the airplane all the way to the tie down. 

Yeah, I see this all the time.  I use the reported winds as a guide about whether I want to try it; and if I decide to, I'll take three shots at a runway before going somewhere else.

[Mark Alison]

I just joined the forum and I'm a Student pilot and I'm going to buy a CTSW pretty soon.  I'm sure this aircraft flies different from the Cessna 150 iv been training in. I have a certified light sport instructor close by here but he's never flown a CTSW before.  According to him there's not much he hasn't flown in his lifetime so I guess he will pick it up pretty quick.  so I'm reading up on the aircraft and watching youtube videos so I can try to get a idea of how to land this aircraft and learn how it flies and most importantly what not to do.

[GrassStripFlyBoy]

Hey Mark,

Similar and recent path for me here, but I flew my C150 for 20 years before buying CTSW last month.  There will likely be several factors to consider before you get to the point of having a CTSW on your field and your instructor and you jumping in it.  Insurance companies vary in time in type required by not just those buying the plane prior to solo, but also for those instructing in the aircraft.  I'd pick a theoretical plane year and hull value, say 2006 CTSW with 55k hull value, and get some quotes so you know that answer.  Second, you will likely be travelling a ways from home to buy a plane, if you work with a dealer that process is supported well, lining up instruction on site, and perhaps even having an instructor fly you back home in it (counts toward your training and insurance requirements too).  I rented a CTLS in a nearby state for a couple hours to ensure this is what I wanted to buy.  The instructor was OK, I had no time in one and probably was slow to develop the sight picture, and after a few "rough" landings I was glad I did my first couple hours in rental, and not the bird I was about to buy.  I would strongly suggest connecting with an instructor that has some time in CT birds, they are simple enough but not without their differences, and an experienced CFI will help you in my opinion.  In a 150 you can "check out" once on all three wheels, a CT requires more discipline on the runway.  A 150 also absorbs a fairly rough landing, CTSW - not so much.

Here is a link to help locate some options on where you might connect:  http://flightdesignusa.com/flight-training/find-a-fdpc/

And on the purchase topic, it seems about every 1-2 weeks a CTSW pops up on Barnstormers, Trade-A-Plane, etc.  My shopping window over the last three months or so had a solid 5-6 birds that were in my range of ideal year / hours / equipment.  I'd also suggest going simple on the panel, a CTSW if glass, would likely be the older Dynon or such, why pay for 10-15 year old technology that is changing fast.  I opted for steam gauges and will invest in new avionics going forward, also avoid paying the tax man on that hit as well.  Portable technology is also darn attractive too.

Darrell

 

[TheFrisco]

UPDATE FROM MAUI

So we flew the CTLS yesterday, both my instructor with trazillion hours and me with low as it gets hours, and both of us agreed ... Cross wind is no issue. Seems that the low side profile really helps and the rudder was big enough with 18 gusting 22, just another day in Maui.

Thanks for everyones feedback here, so helpful. And now that I have flown one, I will start another thread on a different topic

Be safe!

Robert aka TheFrisco