Too Much Stick Resistance, Even On Ground

[TheFrisco]

Got to fly for the first time yesterday a 2008 CTLS, what a lovely plane, just wants to fly and so comfortable. But ...

Are all sticks so tight, with so much resistance, especially on ailerons?

I am also flying a Technam Sierra, similar vintage, and I fly her with 2 fingers, super responsive and super sensitive stick. The CTLS stick felt way too tight, like the mechanics were too tight or there is an adjustment somewhere. And just so you know, I am not talking about in flight, or when the plane is out of trim, I am talking on the ground, no wind pressure or what so ever.

Curious to hear from others ... What do you experience? Is there an adjustment a mechanic can make to have the stick feel lighter?

Thanks and be safe out there,

Robert aka TheFrisco

[UCFKnight1039]

I have a 2010 CTLS and do not feel like the stick is tight at all.  But then my last plane was a 1963 Cessna 172-D...so I guess its all relative

 

[Tom Baker]

48 minutes ago, TheFrisco said:

Got to fly for the first time yesterday a 2008 CTLS, what a lovely plane, just wants to fly and so comfortable. But ...

Are all sticks so tight, with so much resistance, especially on ailerons?

I am also flying a Technam Sierra, similar vintage, and I fly her with 2 fingers, super responsive and super sensitive stick. The CTLS stick felt way too tight, like the mechanics were too tight or there is an adjustment somewhere. And just so you know, I am not talking about in flight, or when the plane is out of trim, I am talking on the ground, no wind pressure or what so ever.

Curious to hear from others ... What do you experience? Is there an adjustment a mechanic can make to have the stick feel lighter?

Thanks and be safe out there,

Robert aka TheFrisco

What serial number is your airplane? The CTLS was introduced January 2008. The first 35-40 airplanes had a different control system than the later versions. These first few airplanes are very heavy on aileron. There are things you can do to make it better, but it will never be like a CTSW or later CTLS. I have flown a couple of the early airplanes and personally I don't like them.

[Warmi]

When I had a chance to play with CTLS , the stick seemed pretty tight compared to my Sting and Remos but I was told that’s because of spring loading ...

[AGLyme]

I went from a Piper Cub to the CTLSi... the CTLSi stick seems far lighter than the Cub's, but... love both for different reasons, no stick issues.

[ct9000]

Had the same problem on my new CTLS. After a bit of investigation the fault was lack of lubrication at the base of the right stick.

Sprayed Innox on all the joints and problem solved. 

[okent]

I have a 2008 CTLS and have the early linkage.  Yes, ailerons are stiff/heavy.  I bought the plane to learn in and build hours.  Solid plane and have adjusted to the controls without difficulty.  My mechanic says that stiffness can be improved but I'll wait till the spring when the annual is due and see if he can work some magic.  He called it an "upright" linkage and the later models switched to a "laydown" type.(may have the terminology wrong)

If it stays the same I'm ok with it.  Really like the plane.

[TheFrisco]

On 10/24/2019 at 2:26 PM, Tom Baker said:

What serial number is your airplane? The CTLS was introduced January 2008. The first 35-40 airplanes had a different control system than the later versions. These first few airplanes are very heavy on aileron. There are things you can do to make it better, but it will never be like a CTSW or later CTLS. I have flown a couple of the early airplanes and personally I don't like them.

The plane details are ...

Make: FD GMBHM; Model CTLS; Year:2008; SN: 08-02-06; Type: Z-FW-Singl

How do I find out which setup that is? Older or updated?

Thanks Robert

[Tom Baker]

08-02-06 will have the old system. There are better ball ends and relocation of the aileron AP servo will help.

[TheFrisco]

1 hour ago, Tom Baker said:

08-02-06 will have the old system. There are better ball ends and relocation of the aileron AP servo will help.

Ahhh AP servo, ok will look into that. Thanks Robert

[TheFrisco]

1 hour ago, Tom Baker said:

08-02-06 will have the old system. There are better ball ends and relocation of the aileron AP servo will help.

And I assume I'll need a certified mechanic for that?

[Tom Baker]

Yes. You might try contacting Airtime Aviation for details.

[okent]

Tom, is there some type of service bulletin or documentation to reference that I can give my mechanic?  Just asking for when I do my next annual?

[Tom Baker]

No service bulletin that I am aware of. 

[FlyingMonkey]

I have a 2007 CTSW, which has a similar control setup to the early CTLS.  It's stiff for sure.  The pitch stiffness can be remedied by removing the extra pitch spring attached to the torque tube the joystick attaches to (if your airplane is ELSA).  The pitch forces feel better and the airplane will need far less pitch trim changes without that spring.  I have tested the airplane up to Vne and it's stable and fine without the spring.

I don't know of an easy way to fix heavy roll forces.  But I kind if like the stability and don't mind having to put a tiny bit of muscle into roll inputs.

[Tom Baker]

1 hour ago, FlyingMonkey said:

I have a 2007 CTSW, which has a similar control setup to the early CTLS.  It's stiff for sure.  The pitch stiffness can be remedied by removing the extra pitch spring attached to the torque tube the joystick attaches to (if your airplane is ELSA).  The pitch forces feel better and the airplane will need far less pitch trim changes without that spring.  I have tested the airplane up to Vne and it's stable and fine without the spring.

I don't know of an easy way to fix heavy roll forces.  But I kind if like the stability and don't mind having to put a tiny bit of muscle into roll inputs.

The CTSW does not have a control system like the early CTLS, however the later CTLS system is similar to the CTSW.

I have flown a later CTSW with the spring, and I didn't like it because of the trimming like you mentioned. 

[sandpiper]

Also check the nut/bolts attaching the ailerons to the wing. Unless I read the manual incorrectly, these are supposed to be 80 in-lb which is way to tight and it took two men and a boy to move the stick. And, when you did displace the stick it stayed there. When moving the stick back to neutral the sudden release would cause an overshoot past neutral. Flew like a drunken sailor. Very weird in flight. So, I put them back to where they were which was about 30 in-lb and torque sealed them so I can see if they start to back off. I'm thinking about using a castilated nut with cotter pin. If I do that then I will need to go E-LSA.

Also the same with the flap attach. When at 80 in-lb there was a loud "snap" when lowering the flaps. Not good so put them back to the 30 in-lb setting where they were before I messed with them.

So, did I read the manual wrong? Any suggestions?

[Tom Baker]

53 minutes ago, sandpiper said:

Also check the nut/bolts attaching the ailerons to the wing. Unless I read the manual incorrectly, these are supposed to be 80 in-lb which is way to tight and it took two men and a boy to move the stick. And, when you did displace the stick it stayed there. When moving the stick back to neutral the sudden release would cause an overshoot past neutral. Flew like a drunken sailor. Very weird in flight. So, I put them back to where they were which was about 30 in-lb and torque sealed them so I can see if they start to back off. I'm thinking about using a castilated nut with cotter pin. If I do that then I will need to go E-LSA.

Also the same with the flap attach. When at 80 in-lb there was a loud "snap" when lowering the flaps. Not good so put them back to the 30 in-lb setting where they were before I messed with them.

So, did I read the manual wrong? Any suggestions?

John, The tightness of the bolt in the bearing should not effect the ailerons being stiff. The bolt should be tight in the inner ring of the bearing, and the inner ring should rotate in the outer race. The bushing is there to keep the inner ring from being collapsed under the pressure of the bolt. If tightening the bolt makes the ailerons stiff one of two things is happening. One the bushing in the inner ring is missing or collapsed, and the inner ring is being swelled when the bolt is tightened. Second, the inner ring has glue or some other contamination keeping it from rotating in the outer race. loosening the bolt allows for rotation of the bolt in the inner ring. This is not how it is designed to work.

[Tom Baker]

One other thing on stiffness. I had a CTSW that the ailerons would stick after is sat for a little while. It took quite a bit of pressure to move them, and it would release with a pop. There was also a little screeching with movement of the ailerons. The sound was obvious on one side of the airplane. It didn't do it with the wings removed. What I found was the support for the aileron push rod in the wing was freezing up. There is a support consisting of 3 rollers mounted on a rib in the wing midway on the aileron push rod. These rollers need lubrication. The access id the small little plug in the flap cove. It is had to see, and even harder to lubricate. I have started lubing this point at the 2 year wing removal. I place a flashlight inside the wing in the inspection cover so it shines down the push rod, and I have a 3 foot tube for my Inox that is taped to a wire to reach inside through that little opening. 

[sandpiper]

3 hours ago, Tom Baker said:

John, The tightness of the bolt in the bearing should not effect the ailerons being stiff. The bolt should be tight in the inner ring of the bearing, and the inner ring should rotate in the outer race. The bushing is there to keep the inner ring from being collapsed under the pressure of the bolt. If tightening the bolt makes the ailerons stiff one of two things is happening. One the bushing in the inner ring is missing or collapsed, and the inner ring is being swelled when the bolt is tightened. Second, the inner ring has glue or some other contamination keeping it from rotating in the outer race. loosening the bolt allows for rotation of the bolt in the inner ring. This is not how it is designed to work.

Thanks Tom. I may need to talk to you when I get into this. I suspected there was more to this than I was seeing.

[WmInce]

8 hours ago, Tom Baker said:

One other thing on stiffness. I had a CTSW that the ailerons would stick after is sat for a little while. It took quite a bit of pressure to move them, and it would release with a pop. There was also a little screeching with movement of the ailerons. The sound was obvious on one side of the airplane. It didn't do it with the wings removed. What I found was the support for the aileron push rod in the wing was freezing up. There is a support consisting of 3 rollers mounted on a rib in the wing midway on the aileron push rod. These rollers need lubrication. The access id the small little plug in the flap cove. It is had to see, and even harder to lubricate. I have started lubing this point at the 2 year wing removal. I place a flashlight inside the wing in the inspection cover so it shines down the push rod, and I have a 3 foot tube for my Inox that is taped to a wire to reach inside through that little opening. 

Excellent post and good information. Thanks Tom.

[okent]

Yes, thank you Tom.

[TheFrisco]

On 10/26/2019 at 1:24 AM, Tom Baker said:

Yes. You might try contacting Airtime Aviation for details.

Sent them an email and hope to hear back. Thanks Robert