Let’s talk pre-heating

[SlingPilot]

4 hours ago, Animosity2k said:

Also the Reiff vs the Tanis system? Anyone using the Reiff?

I’ve got the REIFF, 150 watt, on my Sling 2’s 912 ULS. My oil tank is mounted to the firewall with a metal bracket. I’ve seen the CT’s attachment and don’t there is an issue. The tank gets a lot hotter when running than it gets with the Reiff on overnight. 

[Buckaroo]

I had the Tanis heater on my CTSW and it worked great! The only thing I didn’t much like about this set up was it required a whole other  layer of wires strewn over the already busy wired engine. 

[Animosity2k]

25 minutes ago, SlingPilot said:

I’ve got the REIFF, 150 watt, on my Sling 2’s 912 ULS. My oil tank is mounted to the firewall with a metal bracket. I’ve seen the CT’s attachment and don’t there is an issue. The tank gets a lot hotter when running than it gets with the Reiff on overnight. 

I don’t get the last part of your comment. 

[Animosity2k]

5 minutes ago, Buckaroo said:

I had the Tanis heater on my CTSW and it worked great! The only thing I didn’t much like about this set up was it required a whole other  layer of wires strewn over the already busy wired engine. 

How long would you say the install takes? I never fly in temps under 30*f. Would I still need the tanis? I notice many are talking of temps way less. 

[Tom Baker]

1 hour ago, SlingPilot said:

I’ve got the REIFF, 150 watt, on my Sling 2’s 912 ULS. My oil tank is mounted to the firewall with a metal bracket. I’ve seen the CT’s attachment and don’t there is an issue. The tank gets a lot hotter when running than it gets with the Reiff on overnight. 

While the oil may not get as hot overnight the Reiff band gets much hotter than the oil when the engine is running. I have personally seen the damage caused by the Reiff heat band on a CT oil tank.

What makes the Reiff band work well for the Rotax oil tank, is what causes problems with the Flight Design mount. The stainless band makes contact with the tank which has great heat transfer characteristics, but the pad on the back makes direct contact with the mount. The carbon mount does not transfer heat well, so all the heat generated by the pad is focussed on a very small area of the mount. This localized heat is more than the mount should be exposed too.

[Tom Baker]

2 hours ago, Animosity2k said:

I did see that post. Then a few where people said it worked well. The idea of having to use non factory bolts seems questionable no?

The installation on your CTLSi can be done without replacing any of the factory bolts. 

[Buckaroo]

1 hour ago, Animosity2k said:

How long would you say the install takes? I never fly in temps under 30*f. Would I still need the tanis? I notice many are talking of temps way less. 

I wouldn’t mess with it in your case. In Montana of course you need these systems! 

[okent]

Two questions:

Tom, is there any benefit to idling at 2k rpm in order to reduce backlash? (may not be the right word)

Second,  just want to be sure that the Tanis can be left on essentially all winter without negative effects?

[Tom Baker]

I would warm up at 2500. Prolonged idling can cause damage to the gearbox.

For the traditional aircraft there is evidence that leaving the heater on can cause damage. For the Rotax I think there is less chance of damage since the crankcase is not openly vented. That being said I think preheating before the individual flight would be best.

[GrassStripFlyBoy]

8 hours ago, Tom Baker said:

While the oil may not get as hot overnight the Reiff band gets much hotter than the oil when the engine is running. I have personally seen the damage caused by the Reiff heat band on a CT oil tank.

What makes the Reiff band work well for the Rotax oil tank, is what causes problems with the Flight Design mount. The stainless band makes contact with the tank which has great heat transfer characteristics, but the pad on the back makes direct contact with the mount. The carbon mount does not transfer heat well, so all the heat generated by the pad is focussed on a very small area of the mount. This localized heat is more than the mount should be exposed too.

That indicates an improper installation, the pad seats in contact to the tank and the stainless clamp is on the exterior, at no location should the element itself be direct contact with the carbon mount, perhaps that is why mount cooked.  This is a little 50w heater band clamp, and the 190F thermostat limiter attaches to bottom of tank, which present other factors for things to go wrong.  First, if the band is not tight enough it can create hot spots which might raise an issue with carbon locally, if the thermostat does not have the proper 0.010" thickness of epoxy between the sensor and tank, excessive thickness can insulate and impede it, allowing the band to heat above the 190F limit.

With Reiff, or any other heater, I'd still not plug one of these in and leave it running long term, the time exposure is the other factor in all of this.  Heat up to point of a warm engine, from my experience that is ~ 4 hours in mild conditions, and maybe overnight ~ 8-10 hours when below freezing.  And the forced air electric room heaters are great for a quicker heat / second system if needed, I have a 1500W ceramic element with drier vent tube for that need.

[Animosity2k]

8 hours ago, okent said:

Two questions:

Tom, is there any benefit to idling at 2k rpm in order to reduce backlash? (may not be the right word)

Second,  just want to be sure that the Tanis can be left on essentially all winter without negative effects?

I warmed up the other day and was afraid to take it past my 1760 rpm idle until I hit the 120* and then I taxi'ed out to the runway. It took me about 10 min to hit 120* in about a 32*  F outside temp.

[Animosity2k]

59 minutes ago, GrassStripFlyBoy said:

That indicates an improper installation, the pad seats in contact to the tank and the stainless clamp is on the exterior, at no location should the element itself be direct contact with the carbon mount, perhaps that is why mount cooked.  This is a little 50w heater band clamp, and the 190F thermostat limiter attaches to bottom of tank, which present other factors for things to go wrong.  First, if the band is not tight enough it can create hot spots which might raise an issue with carbon locally, if the thermostat does not have the proper 0.010" thickness of epoxy between the sensor and tank, excessive thickness can insulate and impede it, allowing the band to heat above the 190F limit.

With Reiff, or any other heater, I'd still not plug one of these in and leave it running long term, the time exposure is the other factor in all of this.  Heat up to point of a warm engine, from my experience that is ~ 4 hours in mild conditions, and maybe overnight ~ 8-10 hours when below freezing.  And the forced air electric room heaters are great for a quicker heat / second system if needed, I have a 1500W ceramic element with drier vent tube for that need.

Any link to the electric room heater you speak of? My hangar stays around 40* but perhaps I can use one of these to keep it around mid 50s... then I could probably forego any need for a heating system

[Buckaroo]

10 minutes ago, Animosity2k said:

I warmed up the other day and was afraid to take it past my 1760 rpm idle until I hit the 120* and then I taxi'ed out to the runway. It took me about 10 min to hit 120* in about a 32*  F outside temp.

That’s a long time at 30 degrees. I’d place a strip of aluminum tape on the cooling inlet grill in front. 

[Animosity2k]

23 minutes ago, Buckaroo said:

That’s a long time at 30 degrees. I’d place a strip of aluminum tape on the cooling inlet grill in front. 

Is this the radiator inlet and not the heater duct intake? I've got three openings on my CTLS. Theres the wider U shape one which I assume is for the radiator. Then I have the very smaller u shaped one on the bottom which I assumed is my heating duct intake then theres a small one running vertical instead of horizontal on the left side of the cowling when facing it that I am not sure of what it is... Which are you referring to taping off? 

[Buckaroo]

30 minutes ago, Animosity2k said:

Is this the radiator inlet and not the heater duct intake? I've got three openings on my CTLS. Theres the wider U shape one which I assume is for the radiator. Then I have the very smaller u shaped one on the bottom which I assumed is my heating duct intake then theres a small one running vertical instead of horizontal on the left side of the cowling when facing it that I am not sure of what it is... Which are you referring to taping off? 

On my 2007 CTSW it was the large opening directly under the spinner. Run the tape say 1/3 of the cooling fins or grill test and then remove or add as needed. Be cognizant of the fact on a warmer day you’ll need to remove them. I’d run one horizontal blocking 1/2 the area. Then if needed in temps in the teens maybe add one vertical. I always kept a close eye on temps while flying especially taped.

[SlingPilot]

11 hours ago, Tom Baker said:

While the oil may not get as hot overnight the Reiff band gets much hotter than the oil when the engine is running. I have personally seen the damage caused by the Reiff heat band on a CT oil tank.

What makes the Reiff band work well for the Rotax oil tank, is what causes problems with the Flight Design mount. The stainless band makes contact with the tank which has great heat transfer characteristics, but the pad on the back makes direct contact with the mount. The carbon mount does not transfer heat well, so all the heat generated by the pad is focussed on a very small area of the mount. This localized heat is more than the mount should be exposed too.

Tom, May Imask, which Reiff unit did you have? I’ve got the 150 watt version. I would have thought that would suffice, without problems. I defer to you, as an owner and past user. Their 250 & 350 watt model, I believe would be overkill. 

[SlingPilot]

12 hours ago, Animosity2k said:

I don’t get the last part of your comment. 

After pre heating overnight, with 25F temps, I see 70-90 F temps on startup. We’re at 125F on run up and hotter on climb and at cruise. I get what Tom is saying,though, about the heat band. I like the Reiff, one for is price and secondly, not having to change engine parts in the install.

it works for my Rotax application.

[Tom Baker]

2 hours ago, GrassStripFlyBoy said:

That indicates an improper installation, the pad seats in contact to the tank and the stainless clamp is on the exterior, at no location should the element itself be direct contact with the carbon mount, perhaps that is why mount cooked.  This is a little 50w heater band clamp, and the 190F thermostat limiter attaches to bottom of tank, which present other factors for things to go wrong.  First, if the band is not tight enough it can create hot spots which might raise an issue with carbon locally, if the thermostat does not have the proper 0.010" thickness of epoxy between the sensor and tank, excessive thickness can insulate and impede it, allowing the band to heat above the 190F limit.

With Reiff, or any other heater, I'd still not plug one of these in and leave it running long term, the time exposure is the other factor in all of this.  Heat up to point of a warm engine, from my experience that is ~ 4 hours in mild conditions, and maybe overnight ~ 8-10 hours when below freezing.  And the forced air electric room heaters are great for a quicker heat / second system if needed, I have a 1500W ceramic element with drier vent tube for that need.

It has been a few years since I have looked at one of these on anything. I guess I was remembering wrong on the orientation of the silicone heating element in regards to the band. I went and looked at Reiff's instructions. My assessment of the issue with the band even though I had the placement of the pad incorrect still stands. The thermostat the you mention attaches to the bottom of the oil tank, not under the pad. They are trying to limit oil temperature not element temp. The element will get much hotter than 190°. The damage to the mount was localized to the area that was in contact with the band.

[Tom Baker]

27 minutes ago, SlingPilot said:

Tom, May Imask, which Reiff unit did you have? I’ve got the 150 watt version. I would have thought that would suffice, without problems. I defer to you, as an owner and past user. Their 250 & 350 watt model, I believe would be overkill. 

I am a A&P who runs a shop, and I have looked at quite a few CT's over the years. It was a customers airplane. I did not do the install, so I don't know what wattage it was. I just remember that burnt brown strip around the mount where the band had been in contact. It wasn't just a casual color change where the band was in contact, you could even see the damage on the outside of the mount.

[Tom Baker]

When I had my CT I used a $20 Wal Mart heater with some ducting I bought at the hardware store. I plugged one duct into the small round hole that ducts air over the cylinders, and the other was stuck in the oil door. It looked rather crude, but worked well. I did have to replace the heater once because an element burnt out. 

[Animosity2k]

2 hours ago, Tom Baker said:

When I had my CT I used a $20 Wal Mart heater with some ducting I bought at the hardware store. I plugged one duct into the small round hole that ducts air over the cylinders, and the other was stuck in the oil door. It looked rather crude, but worked well. I did have to replace the heater once because an element burnt out. 

I may try this! Im just trying to now try and decide how I can activate it and turn it on from home a few hours before I head up to the hangar. 

[Tom Baker]

A friend of mine stops by the airport the day before sets everything up and plugs the heater into a timer to turn it on a couple hours before he is planning to fly.

[Animosity2k]

6 minutes ago, Tom Baker said:

A friend of mine stops by the airport the day before sets everything up and plugs the heater into a timer to turn it on a couple hours before he is planning to fly.

Not a half bad idea! Is this his TANIS you are talking about or the electric space heater? 

[Buckaroo]

3 hours ago, Animosity2k said:

Not a half bad idea! Is this his TANIS you are talking about or the electric space heater? 

I left my Tanis on 24 hours a day for two years and never had a problem at all. 

[Tom Baker]

3 hours ago, Animosity2k said:

Not a half bad idea! Is this his TANIS you are talking about or the electric space heater? 

He actually uses a hairdryer I think.