Adam Posted August 11, 2012 Report Share Posted August 11, 2012 Lets see... This is California so don't crap your pants out there... $550.00 a month ($6600 a year) for my tee hangar (yes The Socialist Republic of California is FREAKING EXPENSIVE!). Plus 1950.00 for insurance... Plus 800 for an annual... plus 200 for a few oil changes... (5 year warranty so not much in parts) plus $1620.00 for 60 hours of fuel... plus 1500 for PERSONAL I'D LIKE TO PUKE PROPERTY TAX = $12,670.00 \ 60 hours = 211.00 per hour YIKES!!! If I wanted to park outside I could save $5400 a year and make that cost go down to $121.00 per hour (seems more reasonable, problem is how much you get raped to have a hangar out here). But I like my man cave and I do store the Christmas tree there and a few other boxes (so I should get some credit right?) I like to think of it a little differently, I pay $1000 a month to practice my hobby! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runtoeat Posted August 11, 2012 Report Share Posted August 11, 2012 Adam, I feel your pain. I'm not in a low rent district here near Ann Arbor, Michigan but your costs are high. Even with oppressive taxes, California is still going broke. Too many welfare programs. I see that you pay a "personal property tax" and assume this is for your CT. I hate this tax. Michigan tried to levy this and we almost ran the politicians out of Lansing on stakes just for proposing this. The only tax that is more onerous is the intangible tax. Can you carry your own fuel to your hangar and use Mogas? This might save 1/3rd or more of your fuel costs. How about getting a slightly larger hangar that you could put two aircraft in and share costs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted August 11, 2012 Report Share Posted August 11, 2012 Hi Dick... I grew up in Birmingham. 32 of my 48 years have been as a Michigan boy, I keep trying to get back and life keeps dragging me west. I lived in Ann Arbor twice over the years. Most of the family is now in Livingston County so I find myself back there frequently for both family and business reasons. I have looked at sharing expenses through a bigger hangar with 2 planes, using mogas, or selling half my plane to a partner, but at the end of the day, I'm blessed and can afford it so sometimes its just funner to bitch about it than actually solve it. Just to give some perspective on housing costs out here... in my area, a 1947 post war starter home (3 bed, 1.5 bath, 1200 sq. ft house on a 6500 sq. ft lot) sells for about $600,000.00, has property taxes of $7500.00 and looks depressingly old (like what you'd buy in downtown Lansing for $70,000). A million dollar house is nothing to write home about, takes about $2M to start getting me excited. I compare that to my brothers house in Brighton and think his $600,000 would cost at least $4M out here... I guess we do it for the weather Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
207WF Posted August 12, 2012 Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 Back on the costs of flying, I would suggest that you plan for some unexpected maintenance and repairs. These have far exceeded the costs of the 100 hour/annual inspection for me, in my 7 years of LSA ownership (5 in a CT). If you don't plan on it (I would say, triple what folks are saying for annuals), the risk is you will be tempted to short-change yourself on such matters. Not good for saftey. WF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runtoeat Posted August 12, 2012 Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 Hi Adam. I used to travel to Southern and Northern California a lot. The last time there, I was in San Diego and my company rented Brown Field airport and we did our testing during nite hours. We had to halt our high speed runs up and down the runway to let Customs chase the illegal alliens running across the airport, coming from Mexico. You're right, the weather is beautiful in California but the price for this is too high for me. I'll stay here, enjoy the summers, avoid the traffic jams and do some traveling to nice spots in the winters. You probably aren't old enough to remember Ted's drive-in on Woodward in Bloomfield Hills? I grew up with all of the Hemi-Chargers, 427 Ford and 409 Chevy's running around. It was the best of times. Flying and being around high performance aircraft brings me back to interesting equipment and interesting people involved with this. If you are in the area, give me a call and I'll buy lunch. 734.512.3467 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug G. Posted August 12, 2012 Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 The other thing not calculated here is depreciation. Bottom line is that it seldom "pays" to own a private plane. In order to work that out you have to factor in the joy and challenge of flying. :-) Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
207WF Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 Some round numbers: 5 years of flying my CT and 775 hours. I have lost about 70K in depreciation and I spend about 1300 per month all in. That is about 190 bucks an hour. If I had kept my medical, renting would have been much cheaper. But, then I would not have learned so much about aircraft maintenance! :huh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 Back on the costs of flying, I would suggest that you plan for some unexpected maintenance and repairs. These have far exceeded the costs of the 100 hour/annual inspection for me, in my 7 years of LSA ownership (5 in a CT). If you don't plan on it (I would say, triple what folks are saying for annuals), the risk is you will be tempted to short-change yourself on such matters. Not good for saftey. WF Are you really spending $3000+ annually for unexpected maintenance?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S3flyer Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 Not me for total annual maintenance. I average about $1.5K/year which is heavily skewed by my upcoming 5 year rubber replacement service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredG Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 My unexpected maintenance costs are around $500 per year, on average. Expected maintenance was high this year, with parachute repack and hose replacement. Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 My unexpected maintenance costs are around $500 per year, on average. Expected maintenance was high this year, with parachute repack and hose replacement. Fred That would be about what I'd expect on average, as one who doesn't own a CT (yet). A tire tube here, hose clamp there...$40 a month or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runtoeat Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 As painful as I knew it would be, I've been wanting to figure out ballpark costs to own my CTSW. Here's a spreadsheet I did quickly. If there's errors or ommissions, feel free to let me know. It is interesting that I'm spending as much as shown. I flew 200 hours 2010/2011 but will probably put on about 125 hours this year. yearly costs_120815.xls Attached file has been updated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted August 17, 2012 Report Share Posted August 17, 2012 Dick, Did you charge yourself too much for the 200 hours BRS repack? Isn't it based on years rather than hours? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runtoeat Posted August 17, 2012 Report Share Posted August 17, 2012 Jim, good catch. Going back to the spreadsheet, I also found an error was made in my cost per hour without Rotax TBO in the 200 hour scenario. Here's the corrected costs. Let me know if there's any other errors. One should note that finance costs are not included which relects my situation. yearly costs_120816.xls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredG Posted August 17, 2012 Report Share Posted August 17, 2012 Hi Dick, Nice spreadsheet. My hangar is a bit cheaper and my insurance a bit higher. Still, last time I did a similar calculation, I got about $100/hr at 150 hours per year. Pretty similar, overall. Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johngpilot Posted August 17, 2012 Report Share Posted August 17, 2012 Interesting post. Just for fun, I used the same line items last year for expenses in a Bonanza I share. I thought it would be instructive. It is an old plane and is worth about 1/3 of a CTLS but the hourly cost is -- $179 at the 100 hours per year rate. We pay a lot less for hangar but other than that.. Gas was a big factor as I expected and if you pulled out that, our bottom line cost was about $10,000 like Dicks. As far as operation.. I flew to Florida in one day in both the CTLS and in the Bonanza ( 1250 miles) I got there about 3 hours sooner in the BO but the cost was way more. Keeping an old plane might be cheaper than a CTLS but only if you never fly it.... we had a $34,000 annual last year because of a new engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted August 17, 2012 Report Share Posted August 17, 2012 Bottom line this is an expensive hobby! (but we all knew that) Whatever you do, don't tell your spouses how much we really spend! When I think of just how much more it would be if I had a big boy plane (like a Cirrus SR20 or 22) I smile inside and sleep like a baby. One other line item I ought to include is meals. I don't fly anywhere without eating! (should I pack a lunch?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runtoeat Posted August 17, 2012 Report Share Posted August 17, 2012 Yeah, if other spouses are like mine, the expense topic is something they know is a black hole for money but are kind enough not to ask about. Of course, I know my role in this, which is, I don't ask my wife how much she's spending on clothes and shoes or on our kids or on the grand kids. Adam.....food is DEFINITELY not to be included on this calculation! Johng, that new engine for the Bonanza is a big financial hit but putting the money in a classic cross country traveler like that is justified. And, as Adam says, the SR22's sure are nice but I'm also OK with the capabilities of my CT and the fact that my plane is about 1/8th the cost. The guys who come by to look at my CT kind of get misty eyed when I tell them I can fly by or at least keep up with Piper Archers and Warriors and 172 Cessnas at 5 GPH of MoGas and have a 5" wider cabin to boot. When someone takes the time to fly with me, they start to understand what flying and owning a LSA is all about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted August 17, 2012 Report Share Posted August 17, 2012 It's just like a boat (or yacht). "If you have to ask what it costs, you can't afford to keep it." quote from Vanderbilt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 I did a similar calculation on how much it costs per mile to drive my Ferrari... The CTLS is looking pretty good now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runtoeat Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 Now you're talking about serious maintenance costs. Nice car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 Yeah, if other spouses are like mine, the expense topic is something they know is a black hole for money but are kind enough not to ask about. I'm in the process of putting all my ducks in a row so I can buy a CT, and calculating and re-calculating the true costs of ownership so as not to fool myself (or my wife). I'm lucky in that when I show the big scary numbers to the wife she kind of shrugs and says "well, what good is having extra money in the bank if life isn't worth living?" God, I love that woman! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT4ME Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 A Keeper, for sure! tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WmInce Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 I'm in the process of putting all my ducks in a row so I can buy a CT, and calculating and re-calculating the true costs of ownership so as not to fool myself (or my wife). I'm lucky in that when I show the big scary numbers to the wife she kind of shrugs and says "well, what good is having extra money in the bank if life isn't worth living?" God, I love that woman! As an old friend of mine recently said, "might as well spend some of it . . . . cuz' you can't take it with you." He put his money into a Cub Crafter Carbon Cub SS. Total cost was well over $200,000, loaded. Awesome little airplane . . . . but $200,000 for a Cub? I am watching this thread closely . . . just a matter of time before I spring for a new CTLSi. Has anybody out there been in contact with any new owners/operators of the CTLSi? Initial reviews should be interesting. Bill I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 As an old friend of mine recently said, "might as well spend some of it . . . . cuz' you can't take it with you." He put his money into a Cub Crafter Carbon Cub SS. Total cost was well over $200,000, loaded. Awesome little airplane . . . . but $200,000 for a Cub? I am watching this thread closely . . . just a matter of time before I spring for a new CTLSi. Has anybody out there been in contact with any new owners/operators of the CTLSi? Initial reviews should be interesting. Bill I. Those Carbon Cubs are pretty cool for STOL, but for what they can carry, I'd rather pay somebody $65K for an already-build Highander that can carry 700lb. New SLSAs are too rich for my blood, I'll be looking at used CTSWs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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