TheFrisco Posted February 7, 2020 Report Share Posted February 7, 2020 I raised this here before that my AILERON STICK FEELS REALLY STIFF. I got a bunch of great info, especially learning that my 2008 CTLS is one of the earlier versions with different aileron centering springs. Since then, I have communicated with FD USA and got this back ... "Are you sure it's the cable tension and not some binding somewhere in the system? There is a procedure to lighten the spring loading. There is no possibility of changing the springs, unless you change the plane to experimental.1. Center the aileron trim.2. Start on the left side of the plane. Move the control stick all the way to the right. Have a helper hold it, or use a rope. This should relieve tension on the left side aileron spring.3. Loosen the two nuts on the lower cable clamp. Adjust cable tension is that there is no slack in the cables, but no real tension on the spring. Move the clamp down and tighten the nuts, while holding the same tension on the cable.4. Repeat 2 - 4 for the right side.This will give you the least amount of spring tension possible without having the system go slack." So I went and did some troubleshooting, took off the spring and the ailerons were way less stiff. Obviously no springs is not the answer but I have 2 questions ... Can any of you please send me a picture of the later spring setup in your plane? Any used the above procedure and it lightened the spring load? I am especially curious about the above procedure because from my current setup this would mean the springs are more extended with the stick in neutral compared to now. Do springs have less tension when extended a little bit? Thanks for your thoughts and experiences with this, Robert PS: For your enjoyment and off topic, here are 2 pictures with new decals, and yes we named our plane ... think Chipmunks, "Alvin" is still in the making btw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted February 7, 2020 Report Share Posted February 7, 2020 It is not the centering springs, the early airplane have a complete different geometry of the aileron system. Short of replacing all of the bearings and rod ends, and possibly re-positioning the aileron AP servo there is not much you can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFrisco Posted February 7, 2020 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2020 2 hours ago, Tom Baker said: It is not the centering springs, the early airplane have a complete different geometry of the aileron system. Short of replacing all of the bearings and rod ends, and possibly re-positioning the aileron AP servo there is not much you can do. Thanks @Tom Baker, as always active and helpful here! Here is the bummer, taking the springs out (=lighter springs) did help but FD says that makes it experimental. Well I guess this annual in April the wings have to come off and I will make sure all turn buckles etc get lubed well, hope that helps. Any pics of the new spring system? Does the spring tension get less when somewhat extended? Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGLyme Posted February 7, 2020 Report Share Posted February 7, 2020 Did you lubricate the rod ends yet? Very straightforward project. There are many posts on this forum regarding which lubrication product to use. PS: Beautiful scenery Robert... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted February 7, 2020 Report Share Posted February 7, 2020 It is not the springs. Here is the story. When the CT was introduced It had longer wings, and had a bunch of adverse yaw. American pilots complained. Next came the CTSW. American pilots transitioning out of Cessnas, Pipers, and Beechs thought the controls were to twitchy. So they designed the CTLS. The idea was to make the controls stiffer and less twitchy. More of a sedan compared to a sports car. They did this by changing the geometry of the controls compared to the CTSW. They went a little overboard, and the controls were to stiff. After about 35 or 40 airplanes they stopped production and redesigned the aileron/flap control system again going back to similar to the CTSW. Your airplane is one of those 35-40. It has the aileron/flap design that lays on an angle. The later airplanes have the system more vertical like previous versions. Your ailerons are always going to be stiffer than those in the later airplanes by quite a bit. You might be able to make yours better than it is, but it will never be as good as the later airplanes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFrisco Posted February 8, 2020 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2020 On 2/7/2020 at 8:00 AM, Tom Baker said: It is not the springs. Here is the story. When the CT was introduced It had longer wings, and had a bunch of adverse use. American pilots complained. Next came the CTSW. American pilots transitioning out of Cessnas, Pipers, and Beechs thought the controls were to twitchy. So they designed the CTLS. The idea was to make the controls stiffer and less twitchy. More of a sedan compared to a sports car. They did this by changing the geometry of the controls compared to the CTSW. They went a little overboard, and the controls were to stiff. After about 35 or 40 airplanes they stopped production and redesigned the aileron/flap control system again going back to similar to the CTSW. Your airplane is one of those 35-40. It has the aileron/flap design that lays on an angle. The later airplanes have the system more vertical like previous versions. Your ailerons are always going to be stiffer than those in the later airplanes by quite a bit. You might be able to make yours better than it is, but it will never be as good as the later airplanes. That makes me a little depressed, was totally counting on helping this some but from your response I guess I am stuck with the "sedan feel", maybe more tractor than sedan to be honest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted February 9, 2020 Report Share Posted February 9, 2020 They were shooting for sedan, but got closer to dump truck. I have flown both, and I can sympathize. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted February 9, 2020 Report Share Posted February 9, 2020 BTW, the springs are part of the aileron trim system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ct9000 Posted February 9, 2020 Report Share Posted February 9, 2020 Just my two cents worth but I would look for binding in other areas. As Aglyme said lube the rod ends also the aileron hangars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted February 9, 2020 Report Share Posted February 9, 2020 Lubing might make it better, but it will never be like the CTSW or later CTLS's. If you haven't been around one it is hard, no pun intended, to believe how stiff they are. I have flown a couple of them, and the ailerons are just plain heavy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ct9000 Posted February 9, 2020 Report Share Posted February 9, 2020 6 hours ago, Tom Baker said: Lubing might make it better, but it will never be like the CTSW or later CTLS's. If you haven't been around one it is hard, no pun intended, to believe how stiff they are. I have flown a couple of them, and the ailerons are just plain heavy. Tom I agree the LS has a different feel but my new LS had a binding rod end bearing at the bottom of the right stick which was fixed with Innox, also my SW had binding at the aileron bearings same fix. As a side note the LS problem showed up at about 25hrs. and the SW showed up at about 1000hrs. Neither aircraft ever lived outside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted February 9, 2020 Report Share Posted February 9, 2020 4 hours ago, ct9000 said: Tom I agree the LS has a different feel but my new LS had a binding rod end bearing at the bottom of the right stick which was fixed with Innox, also my SW had binding at the aileron bearings same fix. As a side note the LS problem showed up at about 25hrs. and the SW showed up at about 1000hrs. Neither aircraft ever lived outside. It is not that the LS is different than the SW, it is the first 35-40 LS's had a completely different aileron/flap control system. Those 35-40 airplanes have really stiff ailerons comparatively. The geometry of those first 35-40 LS's is different than the SW or later LS's. That is the main issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandpiper Posted February 9, 2020 Report Share Posted February 9, 2020 Check your nuts/bolts holding the flaps and ailerons onto the wing. On my last condition inspection I tightened those to 80 in-lbs as the manual says to do. What a mess that was. The stick, in roll, would stay where you put it. Finally got with Arian at FD who said that 80 applied to the older planes that had metal bearings and that they stopped using 80 before my plane was made! But the manual was never changed. According to Arian just snug up the nut on the bolt. Do not lubricate with petroleum based products as this is not good for the fiber bearings. Use something like Inox which is not petroleum based. Then put torque seal on so it's easy to spot a problem during preflight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
okent Posted February 9, 2020 Report Share Posted February 9, 2020 I have the same year as Frisco and it is stiff. My A&P is very familiar with CT's and said at annual he can help with that. I'm supposing he will make sure nothing binds. Honestly if nothing changes I'll still be happy with the plane. I'm usually going somewhere when I fly and having 125 knots at 6 gph is awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGLyme Posted February 9, 2020 Report Share Posted February 9, 2020 Robert, get the "inox" lubricant for your flight controls (right hand side of photo). My plane was new a year ago and the controls "lightened up" a bit after I applied inox last Summer. Inox was suggested on this forum and it is a winner. While we are on this photo, the "210 plastic cleaner and polish" is a superb whole plane "waxing" solution, including the windows. The "Simple Green" paper towels are an excellent de-bugger... Everyone knows what Armor all does (tires). Second photo shows the cover that was made by Bruces' Covers... it is of very high quality. I brought it to Oshkosh, it didn't rain, however, I am planning on flying to Sun n Fun, I am sure it will come in handy in FL... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFrisco Posted February 9, 2020 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2020 3 hours ago, sandpiper said: Check your nuts/bolts holding the flaps and ailerons onto the wing. On my last condition inspection I tightened those to 80 in-lbs as the manual says to do. What a mess that was. The stick, in roll, would stay where you put it. Finally got with Arian at FD who said that 80 applied to the older planes that had metal bearings and that they stopped using 80 before my plane was made! But the manual was never changed. According to Arian just snug up the nut on the bolt. Do not lubricate with petroleum based products as this is not good for the fiber bearings. Use something like Inox which is not petroleum based. Then put torque seal on so it's easy to spot a problem during preflight. Great to know, thanks will ask my A&P at annual Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ibjet Posted February 9, 2020 Report Share Posted February 9, 2020 I did not read every entry here, but my thought (what I would do) is to disconnect the aileron control rods where they exit the wing to see how that effects the stick force and to see how much drag there is at that point. I have not looked at the manual to see how you would access those 2 connections. Hey, love that picture, thanks! ET Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFrisco Posted February 10, 2020 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2020 23 hours ago, sandpiper said: Check your nuts/bolts holding the flaps and ailerons onto the wing. On my last condition inspection I tightened those to 80 in-lbs as the manual says to do. What a mess that was. The stick, in roll, would stay where you put it. Finally got with Arian at FD who said that 80 applied to the older planes that had metal bearings and that they stopped using 80 before my plane was made! But the manual was never changed. According to Arian just snug up the nut on the bolt. Do not lubricate with petroleum based products as this is not good for the fiber bearings. Use something like Inox which is not petroleum based. Then put torque seal on so it's easy to spot a problem during preflight. Well those for sure were super tight, so I did as you suggested and its better, still not great but for sure better. THANKS FOR THE TIP!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFrisco Posted February 10, 2020 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2020 On 2/9/2020 at 4:51 AM, ct9000 said: Tom I agree the LS has a different feel but my new LS had a binding rod end bearing at the bottom of the right stick which was fixed with Innox, also my SW had binding at the aileron bearings same fix. As a side note the LS problem showed up at about 25hrs. and the SW showed up at about 1000hrs. Neither aircraft ever lived outside. Can you please send me a picture or drawing where yours was binding? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Todd B Posted February 11, 2020 Report Share Posted February 11, 2020 Does anyone know What Years or serial numbers are effected by the "Stiffer" Ailerons? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted February 11, 2020 Report Share Posted February 11, 2020 Any CTLS that starts with an 07 serial number, and early 08 serial numbers up to 08-03 or possibly 08-04. The addition of the F in front of the serial number came about the same time as the change, but I don't know if that is a definitive way to tell. I had a customer who had to wait for his airplane during the change, and it has a F08-05 serial number. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ct9000 Posted February 11, 2020 Report Share Posted February 11, 2020 On 2/11/2020 at 4:00 AM, TheFrisco said: Can you please send me a picture or drawing where yours was binding? Thanks! Picture is not so simple right now my camera is broken and my phone is an old tradie type that us a bit useless for pictures with any definition so go with the description. 1/ SW binding at the hangar spherical bearings. 2/ LS the rod end at the base of the right stick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Todd B Posted February 12, 2020 Report Share Posted February 12, 2020 Tom - So with this serial number: F-09-08-05, Is mine affected? It Doesn't appear to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted February 12, 2020 Report Share Posted February 12, 2020 30 minutes ago, DJ Todd B said: Tom - So with this serial number: F-09-08-05, Is mine affected? It Doesn't appear to be. All of the airplane I know with the "F" serial number have the later flap set up. Yours certainly would. It is somewhere in the 3rd through 5th month of 08 serial numbers where the change was made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skunkworks85 Posted February 17, 2020 Report Share Posted February 17, 2020 That is part of the aileron trim system Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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