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Last few landings issues staying coordinated


Animosity2k

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Landing left base all times for RWY 24. Winds 200-220 @ 10-12kt gusting 20kt. Turning left base from downwind I constantly keep finding the turn coordinator way out to the left despite giving plenty of left rudder. I haven't really ever messed w/ my trim since I've purchased the plane could this be a trim issue? I've never noticed it until now perhaps a passenger bumped the trim wheel in flight or does this just seem like I need to work on my Aileron / Rudder technique more? I've never once felt this until the last few flights mind you I've been working up my wind tolerances so perhaps it's just that its more wind and that when I'm turning base I'm getting hit with a pretty strong crosswind at that moment?

Thanks everyone!

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But... this has nothing to do with trim or even wind gusts. Trim affects the loads on the controls and their nominal positions in straight and level flight. Gusts cause momentary distrubances, but the average position of the ball will be unchanged.

Coordination in a turn is a result of control inputs. If I understand your description correctly, you need a little more inside (left) rudder in the turn ("step on the ball").

I'm not sure why you experienced this sliping turn on a windy day when you did not in calm conditions. More common, I think, is for Pilots to use too much rudder on the downwind to base turn in windy conditions, in an attempting to follow the same ground path as on a calm day. They try to rudder their way around the turn to sharpen the corner. This, of course, is the dangerous condition; a skidding turn with the ball to the outside (the right side during a left turn).

Mike Koerner *

* Not a CFI.

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8 hours ago, Animosity2k said:

Landing left base all times for RWY 24. Winds 200-220 @ 10-12kt gusting 20kt. Turning left base from downwind I constantly keep finding the turn coordinator way out to the left despite giving plenty of left rudder. I haven't really ever messed w/ my trim since I've purchased the plane could this be a trim issue? I've never noticed it until now perhaps a passenger bumped the trim wheel in flight or does this just seem like I need to work on my Aileron / Rudder technique more? I've never once felt this until the last few flights mind you I've been working up my wind tolerances so perhaps it's just that its more wind and that when I'm turning base I'm getting hit with a pretty strong crosswind at that moment?

Thanks everyone!

The approach to landing phase has a lot occurring dynamics wise, power being reduced (P factor / spiral slipstream on tail), airspeed steadily reducing (less effective vertical stab), flaps being applied, heck - maybe even some of that wheel pant influence in the prop blast being reduced, etc.  I noticed in my earlier days the ball really moving a lot until learning the feel of things, and I also found applying steady pressure would lead to an overshoot of the ball back the other direction when the input was finally strong enough to get the ball moving.  If I find the ball slipping heavier I've been giving more a quick tap on the peddle to nudge the ball to center, seams to work and keeps from chasing it back and forth.  Try faster & harder input, instead of slower steady pressure.

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1 hour ago, GrassStripFlyBoy said:

The approach to landing phase has a lot occurring dynamics wise, power being reduced (P factor / spiral slipstream on tail), airspeed steadily reducing (less effective vertical stab), flaps being applied, heck - maybe even some of that wheel pant influence in the prop blast being reduced, etc.  I noticed in my earlier days the ball really moving a lot until learning the feel of things, and I also found applying steady pressure would lead to an overshoot of the ball back the other direction when the input was finally strong enough to get the ball moving.  If I find the ball slipping heavier I've been giving more a quick tap on the peddle to nudge the ball to center, seams to work and keeps from chasing it back and forth.  Try faster & harder input, instead of slower steady pressure.

What type of Aileron pressure do you apply?

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1 hour ago, GrassStripFlyBoy said:

  I noticed in my earlier days the ball really moving a lot until learning the feel of things, and I also found applying steady pressure would lead to an overshoot of the ball back the other direction when the input was finally strong enough to get the ball moving.  

The overshoot tendency with rudder is more prevalent on the CTSW. It is one of the things that is nicer with the CTLS.

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It sounds like a case of to much aileron and not enough rudder. The CT series aircraft seem to have a fairly noticeable right turning tendency with the reduction of power. This needs to be corrected with left rudder not aileron. Next when you make the left turn, especially if you have deployed 15° flaps the nose will swing further right with more aileron input. This requires more left rudder. I calm conditions you can almost make the left turns without power and 15° flaps with just using left rudder and the ball will stay fairly centered if you are not overly aggressive.

So left rudder pressure with power reduction, and then a little left aileron and more left rudder when making the left turn. 

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1 hour ago, Tom Baker said:

It sounds like a case of to much aileron and not enough rudder. The CT series aircraft seem to have a fairly noticeable right turning tendency with the reduction of power. This needs to be corrected with left rudder not aileron. Next when you make the left turn, especially if you have deployed 15° flaps the nose will swing further right with more aileron input. This requires more left rudder. I calm conditions you can almost make the left turns without power and 15° flaps with just using left rudder and the ball will stay fairly centered if you are not overly aggressive.

So left rudder pressure with power reduction, and then a little left aileron and more left rudder when making the left turn. 

Thanks will work on this more! 

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What Tom said, and would add that if you lead with the rudder pressure slightly when you turn you can stay ahead of the ball.  In the left power off turns you will maintain rudder pressure thru the turn.  You'll get it!  Just keep practicing and don't chase the ball around to much by overdoing the rudder.

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44 minutes ago, coppercity said:

What Tom said, and would add that if you lead with the rudder pressure slightly when you turn you can stay ahead of the ball.  In the left power off turns you will maintain rudder pressure thru the turn.  You'll get it!  Just keep practicing and don't chase the ball around to much by overdoing the rudder.

I added Glider to my CFI last year. The examiner drilled in my head that you don't say lead with rudder. Leading with rudder in a turn causes a skid. Skidding turns lead to stall spin accidents. Learn to apply the proper amount of rudder simultaneously for the amount of aileron you are using to keep the airplane coordinated.

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