Chinese Rotax Knock-Off

[Jim Meade]

You already use Chinese electronics and appliances without concern.  Will you put a Chinese engine in your aircraft?  They are being sold in Europe.  Who is handling them in the US?

https://airkmotors.com/?lang=en#moteurs

http://en.zongshen.cn/industry/hf/

It will be interesting to see if the parts are 100% interchangeable.

 

 

[GrassStripFlyBoy]

Would never consider it, the intellectual property theft that has been occurring in China really sucks.  Not to mention the slave labor and so many other issues in communist land.  I go out of my way to buy USA, point being I needed a new set of metric hex wrenches for the CT tool box.  Went to Lowes, they had Craftsman and Kobalt, both made in China.  Then to Home Depot, Husky - again made in China.  Then to Menards and found Ekland - Made in USA, a quality T handle bent shape, dipped in plasti-coat, in a carry case.  It cost $11.99 for the set, which is $2 more than the Chinese junk - and totally worth it.  F China!

[GrassStripFlyBoy]

And they may have copied the shape & design, which is very easy with 3D scanners and reverse engineering software, but rarely can they duplicate the metallurgy and heat treatment processes.  Maybe ok for the Stihl chainsaw they copy too, when that dies a life is not on the line.  I'll stick with genuine Rotax all the way. 

[Garrett Gee]

I’m not surprised in any way. One thing China is good at is knockoffs. Not in quality though. If for no other reason, I support Rotax because they stand behind their product. Even if this engine is good, I bet their product support will be non existent. If it breaks, “just buy a new one” is the world philosophy now.

[sandpiper]

My wife wanted me to pick up some disposable face masks when I went to Walmart yesterday. I was about to throw them in the basket but then looked for where they came from. You guessed it. Back on the shelf they went.

[Madhatter]

Wouldn't even consider one, however it might put a little pressure on Rotax to be a little more realistic on price structure. Competition is always good for the consumer. 

[GlennM]

They probably stole the prints somewhere.  I agree with Grass SFB:  Aside from the obvious intellectual property theft, the Chinese are not very good certifying their materials to a given standard for properties, so even if they make it to the right shape, it may not have the strength required.  The Japanese aren't so good, either, after the Kobe Steel fraud.

[Roger Lee]

Did you ever think this might be Rotax expanding into the Asian market? Some aircraft companies have done this including FD.

[Jim Meade]

9 hours ago, garrettgee2001 said:

I’m not surprised in any way. One thing China is good at is knockoffs. Not in quality though. If for no other reason, I support Rotax because they stand behind their product. Even if this engine is good, I bet their product support will be non existent. If it breaks, “just buy a new one” is the world philosophy now.

Rotax stands behind their product?  When did this start?

[Jim Meade]

I'm delighted to see Rotax get some competition.  China owns Teledyne Continental, is putting their engine in big drones, builds jet airplanes, etc., so we should just dismiss them out of hand.  I would , in fact consider their engine if it met my needs and had the right price.

[GrassStripFlyBoy]

I should clarify my stance and attitude on this topic has nothing to do with either the people of China, or the members here on the forum either.  This topic strikes a big nerve with me as both my industry and more directly my employer have been a heavy victim of IP theft.  We're a global company and play by all the international laws and rules, one country (China) has been a blatant violator.  Having unique and high performing components for the mold and die building industry, we refuse to manufacture in countries that have bombs pointed at us.  We do sell a lot into China though, as companies specify our name in standards and they have to buy ours.  This has lead to a revolving door of knock off's, can you imagine how it feels to travel to a trade show in China, set up a booth, and then walking the show find others who have copied what you've spent major R&D developing and internationally patenting?  Not only do we loose the potential sale, it's worse, because the companies sourcing the work still think they are getting our product, are paying for it, and then when things fail we're called in and expend effort having to prove it's not our product and was a copy, only to still have the black eye with others who don't understand what happened.  With so much of what we consume originating in China I realize it's hard to avoid, but once you start looking at the "made in labels" its so shocking how reliant we've become as a nation.  The trend has changed though, following reshoring statistics in manufacturing there is a positive trend on companies understanding the total cost of manufacturing sourcing decisions.  And Walmart is much better about made in USA than it was a couple years back, they're making great strides in stocking US product.  I hope the trend continues, and that is one good outcome from this covid deal, regardless of political viewpoints everybody understands when the shelves are bare, or quality = health risk, that is not where we want to be and need change.

[GrassStripFlyBoy]

8 hours ago, Jim Meade said:

I would , in fact consider their engine if it met my needs and had the right price.

Keep in mind the Euro $ quoted here is currently at 1 to 1.2 USD exchange today, that equals $15k USD today.  Shipping to US would be adder until they establish a dealer network here, which if this is a knock off will never happen, Rotax would be all over that.  Did they copy the Bing Carb too, NGK plugs, etc.  I don't see savings here being worth it.  Then when you decide to sell your CT that couple grand "saved" will be more than lost in the end.  I just spent close to $300 bucks buying new Bing bowls with the solid boss design, and OEM gaskets.  Gaskets are on Ebay selling "equivalent" as well (at least they are fabricated in US but from what material).  What if I had bought the "China copy" of the previous revision, the pin fell out, fuel leaked and started a fire.  Maybe I would loose the airplane, maybe loose myself if in flight.

[Runtoeat]

Gotta put in my 2 cents.  I totally agree with Darrell.  I'll do whatever it takes to "buy American".  If this means driving further or spending more, so be it.  I have been guilty of not paying attention to where products are manufactured in the past but the Intellectual theft and industrial espionage being done by foreign countries must be stopped. The last company in the U.S. to make a simple aspirin went overseas in the 1990's.  I am actively sending my legislators requests to bring manufacturing back to the U.S.  We all not only have a political vote but we can also vote with our dollars.  If Rotax wants to expand, they need to bring this to the U.S.  I'm thinking we're one of their biggest markets when marine and off road UTV's are included.  Our freedom depends on our independence.

[AGLyme]

The root cause isn't China, it's us.  We allowed our lobbyists, hired by our corporations and backed by our banks, to pay politicians to look the other way while our USA businesses scurried around replacing American made goods that cost a $1.00 with Chinese goods that cost $.40.  And we started this juggernaut back in the 80's thanks to Walmart who held all of their suppliers literally hostage... "go to China or else".  Rubbermaid, who invested tons in plants in the USA said to Walmart "pound sand".  That state didn't last long when Walmart replaced them.

Say what you will about our President, the one valuable takeaway over the last 3.5 years for me is his courage to tackle the China issue.  No one is pushing it except him.  Not our consumers who enjoy low prices (except Darrell, Run, me by the way, and some others), not our politicians until a few agreed with Trump because it played well in the heartland, and certainly not the business community who painted themselves into a production corner and burned down the bridge behind them.  PS, all of their suppliers moved to China as well, making it difficult to bring production back here anyway.

The "move back" industry to watch is pharma.  Pharma is hugely profitable and yet those guys sent the bulk of their production to China to eek out a few more basis points in profit.  And the Pharmas burned their production bridges here as well.  How is a whole industry going to move its entire supply chain back without Billions in financial incentives?  Now that's an industry that could care less about the right thing to do.

We consumers, politicians, business leaders, lobbyists are all to blame for the production push to Asia... and the Covid issue has finally put a microscope over the subject again re prescription drugs.  Not much will happen until technology (robots/systems) can make things cheaper here vs over there... assuming the raw materials makers simultaneously move back here as well.  It's will continue to be a mess until China becomes a more costly option sad to say.

[Runtoeat]

Good point about it being "us".  I'm as guilty as any others for allowing this to happen.  Like "boiling the frog".  Gradually at first but over the last 20 years, Americans have supported the loss of our manufacturing might.  We have allowed big Pharma and important industries to sell out to the foreign countries by allowing our universities and industries to accept huge sums of foreign money to allow intellectual robbery by the foreign students and workers.  I feel it's time for myself and all Americans to be prepared to pay what will be a huge bill to incentivize manufacturers to come back to the U.S. and to secure our universities and critical industries in order to regain our independence.  I understand competition is what a free market needs but there is no free market when foreign countries run state funded businesses whose business models are based on accepting losses that are passed on to the masses for as long as it takes in order to take over the markets.  When profits are finally made after take over, these go to crooked highly paid top members of the State.  U.S. companies share profits to the workers.

[AGLyme]

4 hours ago, Runtoeat said:

huge bill to incentivize manufacturers to come back to the U.S.

Well said Dick... witness the "Kodak" situation... Government at its best right? 

I believe the only way to get a big company CFO's attention is via taxes.  Stop making stupid $800,000,000 loans to Kodak to make drugs... of all companies...

The Government is very good at making tax policy, experts at it actually.  Overseas production?  Well, that cost us in Government and Society hugely here at home in the USA when you send jobs over... so that 0% tax rate just became 15%... have a nice day.

Ok, enough of my China pontification... back to more sane things like landing on grass -- I couldn't imagine a CT with 40 degrees flaps... yowza !! 

[AGLyme]

Thx Bill... 

[Jim Meade]

I started this thread on engines.  There are other threads on landing on grass.  Why hijack this thread?  

[Jim Meade]

My position on the Chinese engine issue is much more about my dislike for Rotax the company than it is using a Chinese product.  I'd be delighted if the alternative engine was made by someone else but none of the alternatives are comparable for my purposes.

[AGLyme]

Dear Jim,

My sincere apologies for making comments about China and making a comment about landing on grass.  I am hopeful you will recover soon. 

[Jim Meade]

I heard via email today that there is as of now no US distributor for this engine, but the company has several under consideration.