LOOKING AT A 2006 CTSW

[CTDan]

13 minutes ago, AGLyme said:

If it were me, and I realize it isn't... I would explain to the Seller that there were mechanical "Surprises" that you did not take into consideration when you agreed to the Price.  

1) Drop the price to exactly where you are comfortable.  And yes, buy a plane ticket home if he doesn't agree.  I suspect he will sell at the revised price as long as you are respectful and logical... which goes a long way with that generation (any generation really).

2) Fly to Tom Baker's airport and hand Tom the keys and a blank check.  He knows what is safe vs a luxury (i.e. you can choose to fix it or not).  There are only a handful of people in North America who have the experience with CT's as Tom has... you could always head west to visit Roger in AZ, or FD USA in CT too... but I think Tom resides near you.

 

I’m sure that’s solid advice, but unfortunately I don’t know the market all that well. 
Did I agree to a price that’s too high to begin with?
 

[GrassStripFlyBoy]

Without laying eyes on it besides the pictures online and this latest news, I think the counter offer price is close to the mark - and clearly the items driving concern would add up.  The autopilot can be purchased new for $2100 + (I say plus because I think the torque enhancer is adder?), I have two sets of servos and a spare head - might be willing to make a deal if it's a servo.  The trinket things like battery / tires / graphics / cleaning seam like noise here to me.  I think the timing of chute repack, upcoming hose change, and those original Dynons are approaching end of life and people often encounter issues, make the counter offer price the mark.  But given how low the hours are - dang, that is appealing too...  So perhaps a meeting in the middle is still a good call.

You have my number, feel free to text pictures or call if you want further details.  

[GrassStripFlyBoy]

On the topic of decals being bad, I thought when I saw this add previously this year it was tied down outside, that can be rough on these birds depending how long outside.  Does the prop show any discoloration / hairline cracks in finish?  Do the top of wings show any "sink marks" where composite foam core deteriorates? 

[Madhatter]

Best that you find someone who has some used parts for Trutrak. I have some experience dealing with the new owners of Trutrak ( Bendix/King). Not good, they couldn't even find part numbers of items they sell. A lot of original Trutrak employees were let go so it was chaotic at customer service. Even one of their major distributors (Edmo) was having lots of problems with them delivering.  According to them the original founder of Trutrak who they hired was unhappy. This was earlier this year so I don't know if anything has changed but Bendix/King is not cheap in anything and is a large bureaucracy.  I believe they are more interested in certified equipment,  not LSA, just my opinion . I don't need them anymore as I installed Garmin G3X's with autopilot.

[Jim Meade]

I have a TruTrak DigiFlight IIVS FP with two servos I'm going to advertise for sale.  They came out of my 2007 CTSW when I upgraded to a Dynon panel, and they worked when they were removed.

See For Sale forum for details.

[sandpiper]

CTDan - when you first started this thread, and I followed your journey, I really hoped this would turn out good for you. But, I always had it in the back of my mind that this "sight unseen" sale might be too good to be true. I've been there more than once where I walked away which is always hard to do especially when I have spent money for pre-buys and travel.

As you say, his idea vs your idea of condition are miles apart. What else is hiding that is not yet apparent? Did I miss it or did you have a pre-buy other than what the owners shop had to say about it? If you have not had a pre-buy done by somebody familiar with CT aircraft then you need to do that even if expensive.

You sound to be as particular as I am. At this point I would walk because in all likelihood I would never be entirely happy with my purchase. I would rather take my time and even spend more money for a bird that could meet my expectations with a lot less work and worry.

I'm sure to get flamed for my negative attitude and advice. There are good airplanes out there, but maybe not this one.

[AGLyme]

To SandP’s point... and Roger’s constant Drum beat  advice on logs in jillion’s of posts... what story does  the logbooks tell?  Has the Seller kept up with the bare minimum Service  requirements ?  Can you call his A&P?

overlay what has been done with what needs to be done, come up with a cost and place the cost monkey on the back of the Seller.

Kent Wein, former SW Owner, has pics somewhere on the forum of a new labeling job... you may want to reach out to Kent re cost etc, his Re-do was beautiful... 

Maybe the Seller will merely be delighted that someone is finally going to love the plane properly and take a far lower price to pay for a perfectly serviceable plane.

[Tip]

 

14 hours ago, GrassStripFlyBoy said:

On the topic of decals being bad, I thought when I saw this add previously this year it was tied down outside, that can be rough on these birds depending how long outside.  Does the prop show any discoloration / hairline cracks in finish?  Do the top of wings show any "sink marks" where composite foam core deteriorates? 

I fly into Rostraver frequently and have never seen this plane tied down outside. 

[FlyingMonkey]

As others have said, drop your price to a level where you could fix the problems and still end up at your original "like new" price.  A dead battery and AP problems are not "like new". 

The rig issue could be the nose wheel fairing; there were two different fairings produced, and I know of one CT that could not adjust out rudder trim issues until the fairing was replaced with the newer style -- the old style would  "weathervane" and push out the rudder trim.  The new fairing could be $500-1500 depending on what FDUSA has in stock, they sometimes have used fairings at a discount.

Paint and decal issues are normal in an airplane that old, depending on hours.  My CTSW is a 2007 with 800hrs, and the decals around the door areas are pretty worn, but the ones on the tail and wing ends are like new.  The paint used on the CTSW is prone to flex cracks, I have a number of areas on my airplane with 1/4" to 3" paint cracks.  If the airplane is hangared they are cosmetic, but if it sits outside (which a CT never should!), I might worry about water infiltration into the underlying composite.

Honestly none of the issues you mentioned sound like deal-breakers if the airplane is otherwise good, but if the price was agreed on "like new" condition, then price has to be adjusted based on fixing the deficiencies.  If the owner doesn't understand that, you have to pass. 

There are always other airplanes coming up for sale, so don't despair if you walk.  When I bought my CTSW I looked at a lot of airplanes, and was close to buying one until I was warned away by a forum member who happened to know the owner and his poor maintenance practices.  In the end I ended up with exactly the airplane I was "meant" to have, and it has been a joy.

 

 

 

 

[Skunkworks85]

Online pictures of the engine,

I am Not an expert! But I see a few issues

No Fire sleeve on accumulator

Fire sleeve held on by zip ties

Fire wall blanket?

Possible incorrect hose clamps

[FlyingMonkey]

1 hour ago, Skunkworks85 said:

Online pictures of the engine,

I am Not an expert! But I see a few issues

No Fire sleeve on accumulator

Fire sleeve held on by zip ties

Fire wall blanket?

Possible incorrect hose clamps

The clamps and zip ties are not a big deal, they are easily swapped out if the owner feels the need. 

But you are right, there is no firewall blanket, and that is a safety issue.  It's a PITA to install one and FD is no longer paying for it.

[Tom Baker]

I see no fire sleeve on the oil line. The zip ties on the fire sleeve is just for a protective section on the balance tube, it looks like the others have Band-its. 

[Roger Lee]

You guys are right. No fire sleeve on the one oil line so probably none on the other that isn't in the picture. The fuel pressure dampener bulb on top should be covered, but I'm not sure how big a deal that would be. The metal ball has a belows in it which takes away the pulsations of the fuel pump so your readings are more stable. It hasn't been needed for many years. Most likely just up the chances for vapor production from the heat on the metal. The fire sleeve on the cross over balance tube with the wire ties are just there so the expansion tank cap won't rub a hole in the aluminum tube. The biggy is no firewall blanket which was a mandatory.

[Tom Baker]

10 hours ago, Roger Lee said:

You guys are right. No fire sleeve on the one oil line so probably none on the other that isn't in the picture. The fuel pressure dampener bulb on top should be covered, but I'm not sure how big a deal that would be. The metal ball has a belows in it which takes away the pulsations of the fuel pump so your readings are more stable. It hasn't been needed for many years. Most likely just up the chances for vapor production from the heat on the metal. The fire sleeve on the cross over balance tube with the wire ties are just there so the expansion tank cap won't rub a hole in the aluminum tube. The biggy is no firewall blanket which was a mandatory.

Roger, I did several firewall blanket installations back in the day. It certainly was incentivized by Flight Design to add the blanket, but I don't recall a safety directive making in mandatory. 

[Roger Lee]

It was brought about because it was an ASTM standard, they had rubber hoses going through the firewall and openings in the firewall. Then they went to the painted on version in the LS. If someone needs a blanket I have a couple.

 

[FlyingMonkey]

Roger, can we get the paint to use on the firewall from FDUSA?  I think the blanket is an eyesore and I'd love to remove mine.

[Tom Baker]

I don't remember what the deal was, but don't think the paint was an option to use in place of the blanket.

[FlyingMonkey]

1 hour ago, Tom Baker said:

I don't remember what the deal was, but don't think the paint was an option to use in place of the blanket.

Just my luck!

 

[GrassStripFlyBoy]

I'm fairly certain when I was at Airtime a year ago they had another SW being worked on, and the firewall had the blanket removed and had been painted.  It may have been an LS, but fairly sure it was an SW.  I've thought when hose change time comes up, I'd ditch the blanked too and do a paint job.  Would be good to get the scoop on this, not a priority for me at the moment, but three years from now it will be.

[sandpiper]

Andy/Darrell,

You both seem to want to get rid of the blanket. Why?

Mine came with the blanket. It looks good and supposedly has some degree of noise attenuation. I can't think of any reason to replace it with paint.

[GrassStripFlyBoy]

I've noticed the tape around edges is becoming a maintenance item, that's minor, easy enough to remove and replace a section as needed.  The general install is kind of crinkled, acceptable, just me being super neat freak.  The noise reduction is a bonus, but don't know how much.  I'm thinking as it ages I'd choose paint over replacement of blanket.  Realistically, maintaining it is probably the route I'll go.

[FlyingMonkey]

52 minutes ago, GrassStripFlyBoy said:

I've noticed the tape around edges is becoming a maintenance item, that's minor, easy enough to remove and replace a section as needed.  The general install is kind of crinkled, acceptable, just me being super neat freak.  The noise reduction is a bonus, but don't know how much.  I'm thinking as it ages I'd choose paint over replacement of blanket.  Realistically, maintaining it is probably the route I'll go.

Same, mine is just kind of a wrinkled, taped up mess.  Not unacceptable, just wish it were better.

[BravoFoxtrot]

CT Firewall and Oil Hose Sleeve Upgrade

Monday 16 June, 2008 6:34 pm | Maintenance,Owners

As many of you may be aware, one of the production changes requested on newer CT’s distributed in North America was the addition of a firewall blanket and oil hose sleeving in the engine compartment in order to provide additional fire protection and reduced cabin noise. These changes were implemented in late 2006. The original firewall is carbon fiber coated with fireproof epoxy resin.

 

We realized that retro-fitting existing aircraft was highly desirable and asked the factory to supply us with kits to perform the modifications. Subsequently, numbers of aircraft have had the upgrade performed at Flight Design Service Centers around the country.

However, it recently came to our attention that not enough aircraft have benefited from this opportunity and, more importantly, we realized that, in the interest of conformity and enhanced safety for all the planes in the country, the upgrade should be made mandatory.

Now, to answer the obvious questions:

Parts:
Flight Design will supply the parts and materials.

Labor:
The fixed cost at a Flight Design Service Center for the upgrade should be $1450.00; of which $1000.00 will be paid for by the factory and $450.00 will be charged to the aircraft owner (It will be the owners responsibility to bring their plane to the service center and back).

Where:
We strongly recommend having the modification performed at a Flight Design Service Center. There are other locations around the country that are factory trained on Rotax engines and have received documented approval from Flight Design for installing the upgrade. Flight Design will reimburse $1000.00 towards the cost once the upgrade has been completed and after proper compliance documentation has been submitted.

When:
We will soon be issuing a Safety Directive (Service Bulletin) that will require that the upgrade be performed within a year of the date of issuance. We suggest having the procedure completed during the annual or 100 hour inspection.
A couple of items of note:

The details, including cost, are subject to change pending the issuance of the Safety Directive. This Owner news item is provided for informational purposes only and should not be construed as a guarantee to provide said parts, services and remuneration at the above mentioned dollar amounts

In accordance with the ASTM standards, Flight Design does not use notices of corrective action (Safety Directives) to promote or make mandatory non-safety of flight related equipment upgrades or additions.

 

 

[Tom Baker]

I don't recall a safety directive ever being issued, and can't find any indication that it ever was. That being said I think that it should be done.

[Tip]

I’ve been following along on Flightaware and it’s showing that Dan landed in Kanas City, MO yesterday.afternoon. Congratulations!