How long do annuals take?

[Bill3558]

I put my CTLS in with an LSA mechanic a month ago this Thursday.  In addition to the annual I had some other things like repitching the prop, rubber replacement,and troubleshooting an ignition problem. I can’t get a definite answer from him when he will be done and I’m loosing patience. 
AmI being unreasonable?  

[Bill3558]

I should add this is the first time I have gone through this as an owner. 

[Tom Baker]

Is this the mechanics first time working on a CT or doing a hose change? If so there is quite a learning curve. 

[Andy A]

I took mine to Seahawk Aviation in Wilmington, NC last year for the annual and rubber replacement and it took about 2 months and cost $5,500.  The biggest problem I see in my area is I can't find any shops that have much experience with LSA's or Rotax Engines.  I love the Rotax engine, but I will probably go back to an airplane with a Continental or Lycoming just for this reason.  I felt like the shop I took mine to put every plane that came into the shop ahead of mine because they were "easier" to work on because they had more experience with the traditional airplane engines.  I'm still looking for another shop to take mine to this year for the annual and parachute repack. 

[Roger Lee]

There is no reason a 100 hr / annual condition should be longer than 2-3 days and 2 days for a hose change which includes pulling the engine and replacing the rubber engine mounts. If I took a week to do both I could still have two days off. This is using a checklist where most don't and they absolutely miss things without it. There is no reason to ever take 2 plus weeks for both together. This can include an FD wing pull, brakes pads, removing the stab to tighten the pivot pin nuts or removing and repairing the front suspension, updating the Dynons, carb overhaul or gearbox inspection. You just have to work and not waste the day. 

[Tom Baker]

1 hour ago, Roger Lee said:

There is no reason a 100 hr / annual condition should be longer than 2-3 days and 2 days for a hose change which includes pulling the engine and replacing the rubber engine mounts. If I took a week to do both I could still have two days off. This is using a checklist where most don't and they absolutely miss things without it. There is no reason to ever take 2 plus weeks for both together. This can include an FD wing pull, brakes pads, removing the stab to tighten the pivot pin nuts or removing and repairing the front suspension, updating the Dynons, carb overhaul or gearbox inspection. You just have to work and not waste the day. 

That is if you can dedicate all your time to the project. Myself I don't just work on airplanes, I have many other duties I have to perform. I manage the airport, run the FBO, provide flight instruction, work in the shop, and I do this primarily by myself. In the morning I can walk in with a plan to work in the shop, and it can get turned on its head in the blink of an eye. 

Just last week as I was getting ready to crawl in the back of a Cherokee for a stabilator cable inspection I received a call from a neighboring airport without a mechanic to go rescue a Cessna 421 with no brakes on the Right side.

Also proximity to parts can be an issue. For me it take two days for normal shipping on Rotax parts, and three days for items from Flight Design. Doing a hose change is kind of like doing a 3D puzzle, parts and pieces need to go on in a specific order. If you find an issue you might have to wait for parts with the whole project stalled until they get there. Unless you have an extensive parts inventory, or a complete parts list of what is needed it is pretty easy to come to a stand still waiting on parts. Even having a list of parts I have come up with unexpected items that I needed.

I also try to be up front about wait time. Sometimes I have other aircraft waiting in queue when a customer drops off their airplane. I try and let them know when I will get theirs worked in as soon as possible.

[sandpiper]

I am not as quick as Roger nor do I have additional duties as Tom does. I only work on my own CTSW.

The actual annual condition inspection using the checklists usually takes me about a day, maybe a day and a half. This is for an inspection, not working off any squawks I find.

If it's a hose change, that's gonna take me another day provided I have all the material and don't pull the engine. I didn't pull the engine for my 5 year change but did for the 10 year. it's also gonna add two days to the job.

So, if I work steady and find no serious glitches it will take me six days. Not being in the business and since I only do this once a year, each inspection I have a learning curve which slows me down. It helps having a hangar attached to my house so I can easily pop out after dinner to do some work. It also helps if I don't open my hangar door since the airpark I live in is very social.

 

[Roger Lee]

Hi Tom,

You have extenuating circumstances with all the other things going on at your FBO. For a single person with nothing to do, but the inspection or a mechanic at a shop that is only doing an annual  2 weeks to a month to me is out of line. A $5500 annual is out of line to unless there is a lot of repair work.

[Tom Baker]

The OP is getting a condition inspection and hose change. I can see a shop who is not familiar with the airplane, and parts needed taking that long especially if they are trying to do it right. I will also say be very wary of a shop that is not familiar with the airplane, but that is another story for a different post.

[gogogo888]

On 10/11/2020 at 8:05 PM, Bill3558 said:

I put my CTLS in with an LSA mechanic a month ago this Thursday.  In addition to the annual I had some other things like repitching the prop, rubber replacement,and troubleshooting an ignition problem. I can’t get a definite answer from him when he will be done and I’m loosing patience. 
AmI being unreasonable?  

 

Annual inspection should be a flat rate, normally takes about 12 hours at $85/hour

Professor Shuch in PA charges $1000 for an annual. https://avsport.org/maint/annual.htm

Repitching the prop, rubber replacement and troubleshooting an ignition problem should be done by shops that are experienced with your CTLS. 

There are lots of maintenance induced accident that is done by inexperienced shop.

Google Mike Busch or just hire him as your maintenance manager will save you lots of headache, its only $750/ year!

https://www.savvyaviation.com/savvymx/

 

[gogogo888]

12 hours ago, Andy A said:

I took mine to Seahawk Aviation in Wilmington, NC last year for the annual and rubber replacement and it took about 2 months and cost $5,500.  The biggest problem I see in my area is I can't find any shops that have much experience with LSA's or Rotax Engines.  I love the Rotax engine, but I will probably go back to an airplane with a Continental or Lycoming just for this reason.  I felt like the shop I took mine to put every plane that came into the shop ahead of mine because they were "easier" to work on because they had more experience with the traditional airplane engines.  I'm still looking for another shop to take mine to this year for the annual and parachute repack. 

The rubber should last about 10 years.

The "mandatory" 5 year rubber replacement is a recommendation for the worst possible aircraft in the fleet, ones that are stored outside in costal area.

If the aircraft is hangared and fly 100 hour+/year, good rubber should not be replaced due to maintenance induced accident.

Mike Busch explained this pretty clearly in his video.

 

 

[John Vance]

12 hours ago, Andy A said:

I took mine to Seahawk Aviation in Wilmington, NC last year for the annual and rubber replacement and it took about 2 months and cost $5,500.  The biggest problem I see in my area is I can't find any shops that have much experience with LSA's or Rotax Engines.  I love the Rotax engine, but I will probably go back to an airplane with a Continental or Lycoming just for this reason.  I felt like the shop I took mine to put every plane that came into the shop ahead of mine because they were "easier" to work on because they had more experience with the traditional airplane engines.  I'm still looking for another shop to take mine to this year for the annual and parachute repack. 

Andy - I had my chute removed/replaced by Cape Fear Airworks in Southport, NC in 2016. They were doing a lot of LSA work prior to that time, but decided to get out of it because dealing with the different LSA manufacturers turned out to be a PIA for them. However, the owner (Rich Gwin) said FD was one of the easiest to deal with.  He was willing to do my chute at that time, and I’m hoping he’ll still be willing in 2022.  I live in Wilmington NC half of the year but have my annuals done in Michigan, and have the same problems that you do in terms of finding someone to work on the CT in the Southeast. I had my first rubber change done by Lockwood.  It’s a 5 hour flight from you but they did mine in 3 days for a reasonable price. No problems with leaks & I was very happy with their work. My annuals in Michigan are not a problem, running under $1k, including one night in a cheap motel. FWIW, Rich Gwin referred me to Terry Garner in Pinehurst, NC  (919) 291-4408 for annuals. I’ve never even talked to the guy, and it’s been a few years so take it FWIW.  Good luck - I hope you can find a way to make the CT work for you.  

[sandpiper]

I will confess that I did not replace my fuel hoses at 5 years. Reason: there seemed to be problems with the fuel hose change in the fleet. Many were having their 5 year hose change at about the same time.  Some were having lost power problems. Particles of rubber were found in float bowels. So I took a wait and see approach. Turned out this was caused by using fuel injection hoses on their ULS engines and particles were being scraped off by the barbed fittings. There may have been other reasons.

My wait and see ended up being at the second 5 year change for a total of 10 years on the fuel hoses. On the last day of 2018 I took it for a short "pre condition inspection" flight mainly to warm the oil. On take off at about 400 ft AGL I lost power to about 4000 RPM. I immediately closed the throttle then advanced throttle. Got full power back. Getting the power back was a result of the closed throttle allowing a rubber particle to drop away from the jet which then allowed full power when the throttle was again advanced.

After a tight pattern and landing I dropped the float bowls and found rubber particles in each.

My aircraft is flown only by me about 60 hours/year.It is hangared when not in use. Hangar is insulated, kept at 60 degrees in winter, creeps up to 80 in the summer, and dehumidifiers keep it to 50% humidity. I use non ethanol mogas. I check the float bowels each annual. There wasn't any debris in the bowels at 9 years.

When should we change hoses? Five years is too frequent and ten years is waiting too long. So, what is the right interval? Is it 7.3 years? 8.6 years? Rotax doesn't play that game. They know that 5 years will keep them out of the courthouse so they err on the safe side that takes care of the liability issue.

The only way I know of to go "on condition" would be to increase the float bowel inspections after 7 years. Maybe increasing to once/month as I get closer to the 10 year mark? Where this doesn't work is perhaps a high DA day, short runway and trees ahead. I think I'll stick with the Rotax recommendation because I don't need the liability. I might win my case but it would probably cost north of $100K for the win.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[sandpiper]

18 minutes ago, John Vance said:

Andy - I had my chute removed/replaced by Cape Fear Airworks in Southport, NC in 2016. They were doing a lot of LSA work prior to that time, but decided to get out of it because dealing with the different LSA manufacturers turned out to be a PIA for them. However, the owner (Rich Gwin) said FD was one of the easiest to deal with.  He was willing to do my chute at that time, and I’m hoping he’ll still be willing in 2022.  I live in Wilmington NC half of the year but have my annuals done in Michigan, and have the same problems that you do in terms of finding someone to work on the CT in the Southeast. I had my first rubber change done by Lockwood.  It’s a 5 hour flight from you but they did mine in 3 days for a reasonable price. No problems with leaks & I was very happy with their work. My annuals in Michigan are not a problem, running under $1k, including one night in a cheap motel. FWIW, Rich Gwin referred me to Terry Garner in Pinehurst, NC  (919) 291-4408 for annuals. I’ve never even talked to the guy, and it’s been a few years so take it FWIW.  Good luck - I hope you can find a way to make the CT work for you.  

One solution would be to take the Rainbow Aviation 3 week course to get your LSRM-A. Then take a few Rotax courses. None of this is inexpensive but you could then do all your own work and inspections. I have saved thousands being able to do it myself. You just have to be smart enough to know when to seek professional assistance.

Others besides Rainbow offer these courses. A side benifit is knowing your plane a lot better. Not for everyone works for me.

[gogogo888]

15 hours ago, sandpiper said:

I will confess that I did not replace my fuel hoses at 5 years. Reason: there seemed to be problems with the fuel hose change in the fleet. Many were having their 5 year hose change at about the same time.  Some were having lost power problems. Particles of rubber were found in float bowels. So I took a wait and see approach. Turned out this was caused by using fuel injection hoses on their ULS engines and particles were being scraped off by the barbed fittings. There may have been other reasons.

My wait and see ended up being at the second 5 year change for a total of 10 years on the fuel hoses. On the last day of 2018 I took it for a short "pre condition inspection" flight mainly to warm the oil. On take off at about 400 ft AGL I lost power to about 4000 RPM. I immediately closed the throttle then advanced throttle. Got full power back. Getting the power back was a result of the closed throttle allowing a rubber particle to drop away from the jet which then allowed full power when the throttle was again advanced.

After a tight pattern and landing I dropped the float bowls and found rubber particles in each.

My aircraft is flown only by me about 60 hours/year.It is hangared when not in use. Hangar is insulated, kept at 60 degrees in winter, creeps up to 80 in the summer, and dehumidifiers keep it to 50% humidity. I use non ethanol mogas. I check the float bowels each annual. There wasn't any debris in the bowels at 9 years.

When should we change hoses? Five years is too frequent and ten years is waiting too long. So, what is the right interval? Is it 7.3 years? 8.6 years? Rotax doesn't play that game. They know that 5 years will keep them out of the courthouse so they err on the safe side that takes care of the liability issue.

The only way I know of to go "on condition" would be to increase the float bowel inspections after 7 years. Maybe increasing to once/month as I get closer to the 10 year mark? Where this doesn't work is perhaps a high DA day, short runway and trees ahead. I think I'll stick with the Rotax recommendation because I don't need the liability. I might win my case but it would probably cost north of $100K for the win.

Just my 2 cents.

 

Personally, if the hoses are designed to last 10 years, it would make common sense for me to change them at 8th or 9th years, not that much of a guessing game.

Our industry is full of fear of litigation, as a result, they come up with all these unnecessary "mandatory" maintenance that has no legal authority and is designed to protect the manufactory at the expense of the owner's SAFETY and checkbooks. 

By looking at the history of my own airplane, they have follow exactly what the manufactory recommended, done all kind of unnecessary maintenance whether they were "mandatory" or not.

The end result was an engine failure mid flight at 1500 hours hobbs, forcing the pilot to made an emergency landing on a road. They had to spend $20k+ to put in a new engine, even though they have already spent tens of thousands of dollar going above and beyond what the manufactory maintenance recommendation. 

 

This video highlight why we should not follow TBO or any 5 year "mandatory" rubber replacement, highlighting the NTSB accident reports, showing most accident happens after maintenance and overhauls.