F2 Diet help

[okent]

5 hours ago, Ed Cesnalis said:

Hey Roger,  of the people I fly with (one of them male and 3 female) we all make that weight.

You can ask me how I got rid of 60lbs 5 years ago and kept it off without ever restricting calories. I eat 4-6,000 Kcal  / day

Ed, I get it.  Last Ironman I did my calorie burn was 9000 and I didn't gain or lose a pound.  Just managed my intake to match my output.

[Warmi]

Gee ... what do you have to do to burn 6000-9000 calories every day ? Pedal in your sleep

[Ed Cesnalis]

6 hours ago, okent said:

Ed, I get it.  Last Ironman I did my calorie burn was 9000 and I didn't gain or lose a pound.  Just managed my intake to match my output.

Not at all, that's not what I'm talking about.  I do not have to be the least bit active.  I never do cardio.  In this condition I eat to 6,000 Kcal/day.  CICO (calories in calories out) clearly doesn't apply to me.

Here's a question for you. If you just have to match your intake to your output, basic CICO that means you burn all energy you consume for energy.  Where does the energy comer from, where do the calories come from that repairs and replaces our tissues?

[okent]

Ed, please don't take what I am about to say negatively, as I do not know your personal details.

Everybody is different and these are general numbers but this applies to the general population.

First, my background is important to qualify.  I'm a physician, and am an educator of medical students and resident physicians in training.

Second, some people can do amazing things with their bodies, like a 4 minute mile.  Most of us can't, that makes that person exceptional(abnormal).

I am by no means an expert on everything related to the human body but your statements don't match normal physiology.  You may have a malabsorption issue or an abnormal metabolic rate for some reason.(not "freak of nature" abnormal, just not in the average)  By that I mean that you cannot absorb nutrition in a normal manner or your body runs hot(think brown fat).  It doesn't matter if you do cardio but to eat 6000 Calories a day and not do some type of physical activity will cause normal people to gain weight.

The whole repair/replace question is factored into the general normal intake that we call a balanced diet of 2000 Cal/day.  A good rule of thumb is 10 Calories per pound of weight for a patient to maintain their weight.  So if I weigh 180lb, a good estimate for a normal intake would be 1800 Cal/day.  If you are more active then more Calories will be burned, sit on the couch, less Calories.

There is no special diet or pill that will avoid these facts in a normal person.

[Ed Cesnalis]

10 hours ago, okent said:

Ed, please don't take what I am about to say negatively, as I do not know your personal details.

Everybody is different and these are general numbers but this applies to the general population.

First, my background is important to qualify.  I'm a physician, and am an educator of medical students and resident physicians in training.

Second, some people can do amazing things with their bodies, like a 4 minute mile.  Most of us can't, that makes that person exceptional(abnormal).

I am by no means an expert on everything related to the human body but your statements don't match normal physiology.  You may have a malabsorption issue or an abnormal metabolic rate for some reason.(not "freak of nature" abnormal, just not in the average)  By that I mean that you cannot absorb nutrition in a normal manner or your body runs hot(think brown fat).  It doesn't matter if you do cardio but to eat 6000 Calories a day and not do some type of physical activity will cause normal people to gain weight.

The whole repair/replace question is factored into the general normal intake that we call a balanced diet of 2000 Cal/day.  A good rule of thumb is 10 Calories per pound of weight for a patient to maintain their weight.  So if I weigh 180lb, a good estimate for a normal intake would be 1800 Cal/day.  If you are more active then more Calories will be burned, sit on the couch, less Calories.

There is no special diet or pill that will avoid these facts in a normal person.

Okent, I didn't know you where a physician. That makes this discussion awkward so I hope  you won't take what I'm about to say negatively.

I didn't take what you said negatively I took it as wrong. The vast majority of the medical community share beliefs that include our Standard American Diet, a balanced diet if you will,  is adequate if not optimal. This same group, you included I can tell can't explain how in my lifetime our population has become predominantly overweight and advancing to becoming predominantly obese. Pre diabetic and type II conditions are in the same group and on the same rise.  Why is that?

2 things you say above become nonsensical when you consider 1 or 2 more facts.  I have neither a malabsorption issue nor do I have an abnormal metabolic rate.  I do not eat the standard American diet or a diet with balance.  I would term my diet as a species appropriate diet.  For the last 5 years I eat more that 1,000 .lbs of ribeye steak per year and nothing else. Eat meat drink water. Fatty red ruminant meat is optimum.  There is a community of us zero carb / carnivores that is 113,000 strong.  That number is from a single Zero Carb / Carnivore reddit group.  Here its normal, even for a small women to eat 4,000 kcal / day.  That's 2 1/2 lbs of Rib-eye which is a daily average for most Carnivores over time.  My abnormalities as you call them are normal here.  People heal and become lean when they eliminate plant based foods, its our experience and the experience of all carnivore based societies though the last of them are now becoming obese due to becoming dependent on the Standard American Diet and giving up their carnivore life styles.  Inuit and Dakotas are great examples.  So my meat is mostly digested in my upper digestive tract  / stomach. Its plants we sometimes see coming out the other end not absorbed or digested not meat. We see the couple members that don't have intestines relate that plants clog up there bags all the time and eating meat brings flow and relief because it does digest mostly in the stomach.

Your other point that is nonsensical to me is that calories for repair and maintenance of tissues is factored into a balance of energy consumed and energy burned.  After a severe injury we can spend a very long time using massive amounts of calories for tissue repair and without major injury the numbers change dramatically.  How could this be factored into a balance? Doesn't hold water, a factor doesn't make sense.  Its more like an energy balance adjusted for a quantity.  Why is it Calories in vs Calories out stops making sense for a whole community like ours?

In many places, when a physician sees the light and begins treating many/most things with an elimination diet and gets great results he still loses his license and ability to practice.  That heavy hand prevents many from advocating and treating based on the thinking that our species appropriate optimum way of eating is Carnivory.  

I have graduated from the 11th grade its true.  That doesn't make me wrong.

Thanks for the reply and hope my answer causes you to consider my results that are not in fact uncommon one more time.  There are two opposing sides here, one with a loud mainstream voice.  One side has to be wrong.  Look at the carnivores, they tend to look very impressive and healthy instead of the obese thing the other school of thought trends to.

[Ed Cesnalis]

@okent .  on reread I see you didn't contend repair is factored into a balance equation instead a 10cal / lb  ratio.  My response become off target but CICO still is disproved by us Carnivores every day of the week.

[AGLyme]

The diet discussion is popular in our household.  We buy a half a steer from our long time farmer friend every year... we eat a lot of meat, and we know what is in it.  What’s not in it is growth hormones which is a frightening topic of study.  We balance the meat out with garden veggies we grow and freeze ourselves.  We know what’s not in our veggies... no poisons or chemicals at all.  
 

Watch old films of crowds, say for example an end of WW2 celebration... not an overweight person in sight.  Our industrial farming / animal raising practices, all in the name of bigger profits, have baked in and passed along a massive unseen cost in terms of far worse health in the USA than can be calculated.
 

I lost 16 pounds since retiring from full time work because I am eating better, i.e. less junk and quick fix food on the road.  My blood pressure is improved because I avoid salt now.  Salt is in everything for taste.  I miss salt.  
 

It all means that I can pass my Class 3 med and can carry 2.5 more gallons of gas in the CT !!

[Warmi]

1 hour ago, AGLyme said:

....

Watch old films of crowds, say for example an end of WW2 celebration... not an overweight person in sight.  Our industrial farming / animal raising practices, all in the name of bigger profits, have baked in and passed along a massive unseen cost in terms of far worse health in the USA than can be calculated.
.....

Oh , the modern myth of the noble and healthy non-industrial man ... there you go.

 

[Roger Lee]

Diets and calorie count probably doesn't go with F2 article or CT things.  

[FlyingMonkey]

16 hours ago, Ed Cesnalis said:

@okent .  on reread I see you didn't contend repair is factored into a balance equation instead a 10cal / lb  ratio.  My response become off target but CICO still is disproved by us Carnivores every day of the week.

I sure hope you are heavily into dietary supplements.  Healthy weight does not equate to a healthy diet.  There are essential nutrients you cannot get from ribeye and water.  Your weight might be awesome, but if that is the sum total of your intake you are going to be malnourished.

BTW, I am generally a believer in low carb diets, but there can be too much of a good thing.  Drinking lots of water is a great thing, drinking *only* water will leave you very thin and dead.  See where I'm going with this?

[FlyingMonkey]

5 hours ago, Roger Lee said:

Diets and calorie count probably doesn't go with F2 article or CT things.  

With a 280lb useful load it certainly does!!! 

[okent]

Not awkward Ed.  I'm not here to change your mind on your diet/lifestyle choices.  Just adding another perspective.

[Ed Cesnalis]

1 hour ago, FlyingMonkey said:

I sure hope you are heavily into dietary supplements.  Healthy weight does not equate to a healthy diet.  There are essential nutrients you cannot get from ribeye and water.  Your weight might be awesome, but if that is the sum total of your intake you are going to be malnourished.

BTW, I am generally a believer in low carb diets, but there can be too much of a good thing.  Drinking lots of water is a great thing, drinking *only* water will leave you very thin and dead.  See where I'm going with this?

Andy,  I used to use salt and even other electrolytes.  I'm much better of without them as I'm much better off now not drinking much water. Here's my thinking, As long as I was drinking to see clear urine I was also flushing my electrolytes leading to cramps.  Now the only thing I consume other than meat / water is vitamin D.  Here in Oregon I need that even more.

Fatty ruminant meats are infect complete nutrition.  Unlike plants the complete package is fat soluble and bio available and lacking in toxins.  Carnivores that focus on 'micro-nutrients' eat awful or liver or a 'nose to tail' approach.  Along those lines there is a supplement I like a lot . It's organs ground into a capsule with a lot of testicles   .  I really seem to feel the testosterones support with this.

There are essentials you can't get from plants, but not from meat. Rib-eye is near perfect mostly because its 70% saturated fat by calories. 

If there is a missing essential nutrient you would be able to name it. No?

[FlyingMonkey]

18 hours ago, Ed Cesnalis said:

If there is a missing essential nutrient you would be able to name it. No?

Vitamin C among others.  Enjoy your scurvy! 

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/10-nutrients-you-cant-get-from-animal-foods

[Ed Cesnalis]

5 hours ago, FlyingMonkey said:

Vitamin C among others.  Enjoy your scurvy! 

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/10-nutrients-you-cant-get-from-animal-foods

Wrong red meat is rich in viatmin C.  Fresh red meat is a cure for scurvy.  Carnivores require little vitamin C as it is need to digest plants. I would say enjoy your gut but Clearly that aint you.

 

I'm five years in I would have gotten scurvey long ago it if conventional wisdom is correct.  For that matter I must have died long ago from arthrosclerosis.   I have a calcium score of zero, how's that?

Joe Roegan will reluctantly tell you I'm right, you want a link?  In fact when Joe interviewed Jordan Peterson on how carnivory cured him and daughter Mikaila and even worked on Joe himself. when that happened the number of carnivores quadroupled, that guy has numbers.

[Warmi]

If sticking to meat is a magical cure we would have known about it by now , there would have been controlled studies confirming this one way or another...

Sadly, I don’t think there is a cure for life ... it is all in your genetics and different genetic composition result in different outcomes - all we know for sure that out bodies need certain baseline combinations of nutrients.

There is no way way for you to prove that your carnivore diet is responsible for your calcium score - it may just be your genetics or a combination of multiple factors.

[Ed Cesnalis]

5 hours ago, FlyingMonkey said:

Vitamin C among others.  Enjoy your scurvy! 

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/10-nutrients-you-cant-get-from-animal-foods

I read the list.  Not one thing on the list is essential especially for a carnivore.  I'll be glad to explain on each and every item but not here.

[Ed Cesnalis]

29 minutes ago, Warmi said:

If sticking to meat is a magical cure we would have known about it by now , there would have been controlled studies confirming this one way or another...

Sadly, I don’t think there is a cure for life ... it is all in your genetics and different genetic composition result in different outcomes - all we know for sure that out bodies need certain baseline combinations of nutrients.

There is no way way for you to prove that your carnivore diet is responsible for your calcium score - it may just be your genetics or a combination of multiple factors.

Hi Warmi,

Guess what, we learned about it 2 1/2 million years ago when we became bipedal.  We were and are genus homo. It started with exploding brain size that could have only been fueled by carnivory.  Brain size increase continued ever since as we evolved as carnivores but ended 10,000 years ago.  In the last 10,000 years humanity has mostly become plant eaters and our brain size has been shrinking for that time.  There were a number of advocates, and even people that spent a hole year in hospital with controlled meat diet proving the health benefits in a controlled proven fashion. Since the voices of people like Kellogs, 7th day adventists and such only the plant based side makes main stream acceptance.  Plant based eating has made us, now even most of the world obese.  Intentional dissention was used to falsely prove meat was dangerous long ago. The lipid theory is a fallacy.  More than anything else our false knowlege is based on and begins with Ancel Keys 7 country's study that showed meat causes arthrosclerosis.  We know he faked this most important #1 study. He only included 7 countries because using more showed he was wrong.

Epidemiology and studies are flawed and support plant based eating.

My family history is full of heart disease and metabolic disease (diabetes)  On redit we are now a group well over 100,000 strong and zero calcium scores are the norm

Baseline nutrients are way off for 2 reasons.  Many nutrients and minimum levels are needed or believe to be needed to digest plants.  In And'y list most are anti-oxidants again, Carnivores don't have the inflammation. Anti-oxidants are not inherently a positive.  You rely on gut biome (bacterial) to digest your plants, you actually consume the bacterial poop.  So you need to support these bacterial I don't  You think you need fiber for digestion when we carnivores have the perfect digestion and know fiber isn't food for a human being.

Populations that live off of meat are healthy.  What you know about baselines is proven wrong by us carnivores who tend to be lean, strong and healthy. 20 year carnivores look amazing, how could that be if conventional wisdom was right at all?

[Ed Cesnalis]

Heads up!  Rib-eye is on sale this week at many markets!

[okent]

Just for a little balance, google Loma Linda.  One of the world blue zones which have a repeating theme.

Merry Christmas everyone.  I'm glad and appreciative this forum exists.  It's helped me in my journey to learn to fly and be a better pilot.(That means you too Ed!)