CTxx landings a pitch attitude approach.

[Ed Cesnalis]

CT landings are quite easy to do.  Landing and rolling out on the mains will be the objective here as it avoids the more vulnerable 3 point roll out while still at speed.

We use 3 different pitch attitudes.  In order to achieve the target pitch attitude it's helpful to know how recognize it. Lets call the three level, approach and landing.  You already know and use these pitch attitudes for other purposes like departure and cruise.

1. Level - this is where we set our EFIS to level for cruise.  You already know this sight picture. 
2. Approach In a CTSW this attitude is drooped wing tip level.  In your more stretched design its the attitude you use to descend to the runway.  This is best with landing flaps and a closed throttle at a speed under 60kts. 
3. Landing - this is your Vy climb attitude. You already know it from departures.

Practice the transition from level to landing attitudes at cruise with a cruise throttle setting.  You can learn and fine tune this in 10 minutes.

Try using one speed change  and fly the whole approach at that speed relying on trim not stick pressure to maintain it.  55kts is a great go to number for me here.  Getting this number right results in an easy transition from approach to level without ballooning.

No more numbers, this is a pitch attitude approach to landing a Flight Design CT series aircraft.

Lets begin reviewing this technique on final in our nose low approach attitude.  

• Transition from approach attitude to level attitude. Initiate this when under a wingspan from the ground.  Target 3' and level, higher is okay.  Use feel to avoid ballooning while avoiding nose wheel contact.  Small balloon is not a go-around, just release some back pressure and continue.
• Transition from level attitude to landing attitude. Contact happens best as soon as you achieve landing attitude.

This simple technique works for me 98% of the time  As long as I can approach all the way to under 1 wing span it works. From this landing/Vy attitude I easily get full stall landings with my stick at the aft stop. I land balanced on my mains. I do not have my nose wheel contacting less than 1 second after my mains.

 

Advanced landings

Advanced landings happen when I cannot descend in my approach attitude below a wing span.  When there is negative wind sheer present at landing, as the wind snaps past that 90 degree point we realize rapid sink.  In this case I can't be level at 3' instead I'm level at 8' or even higher.  The technique is the same just higher up. My landing attitude from here will very likely result in rapid sink.  Using throttle to soften might only eat up runway and not get you down that last 8' or more.  From a landing attitude and closed throttle (keep right hand on throttle) I have to land soft at the bottom of the rapid sink.  I still have a neutral stick and its my cushion at the bottom to the extent its needed.

 

Night landings

This variation is a blend of the two above.  Achieve landing attitude a little early/high and control sink with throttle if needed.  Use this for darkness or any condition where you cannot perceive your height above the ground precisely.

 

 

[AGLyme]

1 hour ago, Ed Cesnalis said:

Landing and rolling out on the mains will be the objective here as it avoids the more vulnerable 3 point roll out while still at speed

I went flying yesterday with a pal.  With 12.9 gallons on board (including the header tank), we were 25 lbs shy of the weight limit.  Wind was sporty and produced some shear over the threshold (our airport is infamous for its shear).  I am working harder at landing and STAYING on the mains for a while before I drop the nose.  I have never landed ON the nose wheel, but oftentimes I will land on all 3 wheels.  Kent W took a video of me landing, which I posted recently... Note, the "mains to nosewheel transition" was very brief.  I am working harder on holding off on letting the nose down.  This video that Kent took has inspired me to keep working at it.

In spite of the sporty wind yesterday, I landed on the mains and held off for about 4 seconds yesterday... it was one of my best landings ever.  Very much appreciate the primer Ed, excellent summary of what we should be doing.  With your experience at the highest elevations there ain't a lot of air molecules lifting you up to get you out of trouble.  I'm at near sea level, so starting the sequence over again assuming the runway is long enough is easier for the rest of us.

[Ed Cesnalis]

That's a great video.  I'm sure you noticed that the transition continued forward till you had nose and one main in contact.  To put in context of this thread you were a long way from reaching a Vy climb attitude before contact.

[FlyingMonkey]

One thing I find, that is very obvious in that video, is that there is a notable "pause" in the descent when you hit ground effect.  I generally use that as a cue for round out.  You have to wait until the descent starts again after that pause or you will rotate early and drop it in.  Be aware the slower you are the less pronounced that ground effect pause is.  At a 48kt slow approach you barely notice it and have to time things more by sight and feel.

[AGLyme]

31 minutes ago, FlyingMonkey said:

You have to wait until the descent starts again after that pause or you will rotate early and drop it in

Correct.  It's like bouncing on the runway, except I am bouncing near ground effect and not on the runway... does that make sense?  It's a timing and control thing.  When I was learning in the Cub, it was far easier... When close, pull the stick back into your crotch and hold it there, the plane will land and all will be well.  With the CT, at least in my experience, I can't merely hold the stick back... the CT has to be "flown" into the landing, then the stick is held back... and this is where I am practicing... hold the stick back, touchdown... continue to the hold the stick back for a few more seconds then release.  That technique worked well yesterday in a wind that swiveled about 30 degrees back and forth as I was on Final through touchdown.

 

58 minutes ago, Ed Cesnalis said:

I'm sure you noticed that the transition continued forward till you had nose and one main in contact.

Yes, and that is exactly the value of this video, other than the seeing the cool approach over the Goodspeed bridge and CT River... ; )

[Ed Cesnalis]

4 minutes ago, AGLyme said:

continue to the hold the stick back for a few more seconds then release. 

The classic thinking is: compare that aft movement to a ratchet.  Always back never forward / release.  Pause it to avoid balloon but always back.

[Ed Cesnalis]

44 minutes ago, FlyingMonkey said:

One thing I find, that is very obvious in that video, is that there is a notable "pause" in the descent when you hit ground effect.  I generally use that as a cue for round out.  You have to wait until the descent starts again after that pause or you will rotate early and drop it in.  Be aware the slower you are the less pronounced that ground effect pause is.  At a 48kt slow approach you barely notice it and have to time things more by sight and feel.

Andy, to put your thinking in the context of this thread and pitch attitude landing I would say it like this.  Ground effect when fast requires more patience and feel when transitioning from approach to level in order to avoid ballooning. 

Afterwards hopefully the nose is then raised to the landing attitude before contact.

[AGLyme]

12 minutes ago, Ed Cesnalis said:

movement to a ratchet

Brilliant suggestion.  I'll ask Kent to make more vids for this string.  Weather isn't looking great until Friday.

[AGLyme]

Did the same thing here... you will note that mid-way through the base leg, I stopped the descent.  It was my first time at this airport and when I turned downwind to base, I remember looking down and all of a sudden there was a deep gorge... right under the plane.  I remember for some reason arresting the descent... purely psychological.  And that is why Final was so high.  I had 30 degrees of flaps in and I was new to 30 as well at the time of this video.  Thanks for the advice Ed and Andy.

 

 

[FlyingMonkey]

8 hours ago, Ed Cesnalis said:

Andy, to put your thinking in the context of this thread and pitch attitude landing I would say it like this.  Ground effect when fast requires more patience and feel when transitioning from approach to level in order to avoid ballooning. 

Afterwards hopefully the nose is then raised to the landing attitude before contact.

That language works for me.

[FlyingMonkey]

7 hours ago, AGLyme said:

Did the same thing here... you will note that mid-way through the base leg, I stopped the descent.  It was my first time at this airport and when I turned downwind to base, I remember looking down and all of a sudden there was a deep gorge... right under the plane.  I remember for some reason arresting the descent... purely psychological.  And that is why Final was so high.  I had 30 degrees of flaps in and I was new to 30 as well at the time of this video.  Thanks for the advice Ed and Andy.

 

 

You must have had some power in, or added some, or you could not have floated that far.  For grass landings I like to be power off on final, and I usually end up slipping.  What was your approach speed?  You looked a bit fast and flat (hence the pronounced ground effect).  Try about 50-52kt on final solo and I think it will be a little easier for you.   

[AGLyme]

9 hours ago, FlyingMonkey said:

Try about 50-52kt on final solo and I think it will be a little easier for you.

Got to work on going that slow.  I think I’m about 55 ish over the fence with 30 degs of flaps in. Thx

[FlyingMonkey]

1 hour ago, AGLyme said:

Got to work on going that slow.  I think I’m about 55 ish over the fence with 30 degs of flaps in. Thx

55kt is a good approach speed generally, and I use that when landing on pavement.  If you have a long grass runway that will work great.  If you are trying to get into a tight spot or have a short runway, you want it to be as slow as possible.  Just practice trying to bring it down a knot or two at a time and see how it feels.  Your nose will be lower on approach, so you will have to use more elevator to adjust your attitude at the bottom. 

You don't really have to worry about stalling out, that doesn't start to be a concern until 45kt or so, and it just leads to highly increased sink rate.  The CT has such great power-to-weight that if during your approach you get too slow, you will just get into a higher sink rate.  If the sink becomes uncomfortable or too high for you, adding power will arrest the sink immediately; if you get really behind the curve it will take a lot of power.  You can also hold a slower speed with a little bit of power in to maintain a less steep glide path.  But you shouldn't get into those problems in the 50-52kt range at 30° flaps when solo -- it should feel like a normal approach just a little slower and steeper.

[AGLyme]

My stall warning is super sensitive too and it has never buzzed on final... 

Requires more courage and skill... will work more up high on a windless day first.

 

[FlyingMonkey]

16 minutes ago, AGLyme said:

My stall warning is super sensitive too and it has never buzzed on final... 

Requires more courage and skill... will work more up high on a windless day first.

 

Stall warning, what's that?!? 

You have the right idea...just find an easy grass strip you like, and practice several landings there at various speeds on a calm day.

BTW, once I started slowing down my approach speeds in all conditions, my landings improved markedly.  It's a hard thing to get in your head when the abject fear of stall/spins in the pattern is drilled into our heads as pilots, but once you get the feel down it pays off.  Just take it slow and easy; it took me years to refine my technique and I'm still learning.

BTW, for reference here's the very first grass landing I every did.  It worked out okay, but you can see the nosewheel come down too fast after touchdown, as I released the stick back pressure.  That was a bad habit I had at the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEYgOvfeuWE

[AGLyme]

Nice... you didn’t 3 point tho... 

landing on grass is better than _____ (fill in the blank)... it’s an absolute blast.  It motivates me to keep perfecting the landing techniques you and Ed write about.

[FlyingMonkey]

19 minutes ago, AGLyme said:

Nice... you didn’t 3 point tho... 

landing on grass is better than _____ (fill in the blank)... it’s an absolute blast.  It motivates me to keep perfecting the landing techniques you and Ed write about.

The only downside is cleaning the gear and prop! 

[John Vance]

I don’t usually watch the airspeed during the landing flare but this thread made me curious, so during the last touch & go session with 35 deg flaps landings, I peeked. This was in very light wind conditions, and airspeed was about 32 kts indicated just before touchdown.  In my CTLS, even at close to gross wt, indicated power-off stall speed at 35 flaps is about 28 kts, which provides a level of comfort when using slower approach speeds.  My normal approach on short final is at 43 kts, and even at that speed, the airplane still floats a bit, and I don’t get the bottom-dropping-out phenomenon (engine idle on the ground is around 2050 rpm, and perhaps that is a factor). When I hear about approach speeds on final of over 50 kts, I wonder if we’re flying the same airplane. If you’re watching hundreds of feet pass under your wheels before touching down, consider slowing it down, starting with a look at indicated stall speed. 

[AGLyme]

2 hours ago, John Vance said:

When I hear about approach speeds on final of over 50 kts, I wonder if we’re flying the same airplane

You have a CTLS and you are under 50 directly after turning base to final w/ 35 degs flaps ?  Or on short final ? Or in Ground Effect final ?... at gross weight. 

PS, my CTLS limit is 30 degs flaps.

[Tom Baker]

Everyone please approach these lower speeds with caution. I have flown enough different CT's to know that flying the same indicated speed in one airplane does not feel the same as another. I flew one that the feeling of sink at 55 indicated felt significant where others feel floaty. I often try to remind everyone , that while you may be very familiar with your airplane there are many different versions. What you know about yours may not apply to someone else's.

[John Vance]

I usually fly the descent on downwind at 60 kt with 15 flaps and lose about 300 ft before turning base, + or - depending on wind.  The timing of full flaps depends on whether it looks like I’m too high or too low, but I usually slow to mid to low 50’s on base to make it easier on the flap motor. It’s usually full flaps just before or after turning final, and gradually slowing it down while approaching the runway.  It varies a lot, though, depending on conditions and I sometimes slip or slow down to descend faster, or delay flaps b/c I’m too low. The 43 kt number I mentioned is on short final before rounding out. I should emphasize that I don’t think anyone should blindly use that number, but figure out what works for you and your airplane. I don’t know if everyone is seeing 28 kt indicated at stall - that number surprised me but also encouraged me to try lower approach speeds.  The reason I started down this path is that I was getting the airplane to flare height and waiting...waiting...waiting and watching the runway roll by.  

[Ed Cesnalis]

2 hours ago, AGLyme said:

You have a CTLS and you are under 50 directly after turning base to final w/ 35 degs flaps ?  Or on short final ? Or in Ground Effect final ?... at gross weight. 

PS, my CTLS limit is 30 degs flaps.

 

49 minutes ago, Tom Baker said:

Everyone please approach these lower speeds with caution. I have flown enough different CT's to know that flying the same indicated speed in one airplane does not feel the same as another. I flew one that the feeling of sink at 55 indicated felt significant where others feel floaty. I often try to remind everyone , that while you may be very familiar with your airplane there are many different versions. What you know about yours may not apply to someone else's.

 

26 minutes ago, John Vance said:

I usually fly the descent on downwind at 60 kt with 15 flaps and lose about 300 ft before turning base, + or - depending on wind.  The timing of full flaps depends on whether it looks like I’m too high or too low, but I usually slow to mid to low 50’s on base to make it easier on the flap motor. It’s usually full flaps just before or after turning final, and gradually slowing it down while approaching the runway.  It varies a lot, though, depending on conditions and I sometimes slip or slow down to descend faster, or delay flaps b/c I’m too low. The 43 kt number I mentioned is on short final before rounding out. I should emphasize that I don’t think anyone should blindly use that number, but figure out what works for you and your airplane. I don’t know if everyone is seeing 28 kt indicated at stall - that number surprised me but also encouraged me to try lower approach speeds.  The reason I started down this path is that I was getting the airplane to flare height and waiting...waiting...waiting and watching the runway roll by.  

This thread is about a pitch attitude approach  that is extremely simple and safe.  Numbers don't really apply.  Sub-optimal approach speeds make it impossible without adding power as you can't achieve the landing attitude and instead do something close to the three point landing.

The primary reason for presenting this pitch attitude approach is to show how to easily finish/contact in a landing attitude (Vy climb attitude).  It also takes away any need for complexity ( 1 speed maintained by trim and 1 config from abeam to ground effect ). Finally it uses optimal approach speed not based on any instrument.  

 

[okent]

Ed, if you get a chance could you shoot a video of this?  I seem to remember that you had posted some video's before.  If not then no big deal, but I'm a visual learner so it would help me a lot.  I know it's a ton of work to do this.

Thanks

Tom

[AGLyme]

1 hour ago, Tom Baker said:

Everyone please approach these lower speeds with caution

Roger that.

[John Vance]

1 hour ago, Ed Cesnalis said:

 

 

This thread is about a pitch attitude approach  that is extremely simple and safe.  Numbers don't really apply.  Sub-optimal approach speeds make it impossible without adding power as you can't achieve the landing attitude and instead do something close to the three point landing.

The primary reason for presenting this pitch attitude approach is to show how to easily finish/contact in a landing attitude (Vy climb attitude).  It also takes away any need for complexity ( 1 speed maintained by trim and 1 config from abeam to ground effect ). Finally it uses optimal approach speed not based on any instrument.  

 

Ed - sorry, I didn’t mean to derail your thread.  My post was a reaction to to the video showing a 10 second float in ground effect and my own experience with that problem. I think both attitude and airspeed can be used in combination.