Annual condition inspection issue

[rickysmith]

I purchased my CTSW last summer after locating a flight instructor who was already familiar with the airplane.

I have been training since.

Due to waiting for warmer weather I hadn't flown for the last 6 weeks.

My annual just became due and I made a appointment with my mechanic.

I dropped of the log books and prior to the date he was going to begin the inspection, he started the research and sent me this email quoted below. Any advise on what I could do to accomplish this yearly inspection would be appreciated. The plane is hangared at Cedar Rapids Municipal airport. After my training finished I planned to move the plane to Davenport Municipal airport that is close to my home. All in Iowa.

 

 

Good morning Ricky,

I started going over your logbooks and bouncing them off the Annual/Conditional Inspection requirements for your aircraft. I have run into a problem which will not allow me to perform the Annual/Conditional Inspection on your aircraft. I’ll explain below:

 

According to your logbooks and the aircraft’s maintenance manual, your aircraft is due a Wing Attachment Area Inspection which requires the removal of the wings to perform.   

 

Removing and reinstalling the wings is not a problem, the problem is, according to Flight Design to remove and install the wings you have to have Flight Design Task Specific Training -“FD Training”. We have A&P/I.A. mechanics. We perform maintenance/inspections on varies aircraft make and models to include Light Sport Aircrafts. But to perform this particular task we have to have FD Training. We do not have anyone currently that has this training. I have reached out to Flight Design for information on this training and not have heard from them yet. It appears from their web site that this is a 3 week course.

 

 

 

This afternoon I will put your aircraft’s logbooks back at our CSR’s Desk and you can pick them up at your convenience. If it wasn’t for this inspection item being due we could have completed the Annual/Conditional Inspection. I apologize for not being able to perform the Inspection. The aircraft has not been moved, it is still in its hangar.

If there is anything else we could help you with please let me know.

Thanks

Jose

[GlennM]

The FD USA guys are all at Sun&Fun this week.

Only half in jest:  You should have Arian fly to Cedar Rapids on his way home and work with your mechanic to get the inspection completed.

Good luck with the issue.

[GrassStripFlyBoy]

The wing attach inspection is each 600 hour interval, or 2 year (or 3 if flying low amount of hours), so first check if you're at the 600 hour interval or if flown over 100 hours 'after two years of past inspection', this might be an exception your current source is not reading the MM correctly on.  This takes a bit of lawyer reading of terms, its not a hard every 2 years statement... That may allow them to do everything else, sign off the annual, and you're still within the 100 hour window to take it somewhere later just for the wing pull.

Second idea, if the bird is local to the Iowa area, who in the logs was doing past work, perhaps reach out to them.  Or perhaps you were talking general FD familiarity and not this airplane?

 

[Tom Baker]

There is a FAA legal ruling that says the manufacture can not override FAA requirements. The FAA requirement is that you must have training in removing and installing wings. According to the FAA a mechanic may perform any work they have done before, so if they have removed and installed wings on any aircraft they can legally do it on a CT. That being said it would be a good idea to talk to someone who has experience with the CT wing removal. I would be glad to talk with them if you want.

[Towner]

Contact Tim Busch at Iowa flight training in Cedar Rapids. They have a mechanic with CT experience. I purchased a CT in December and they did the condition inspection, including the wing pull.

[rickysmith]

3 hours ago, Towner said:

Contact Tim Busch at Iowa flight training in Cedar Rapids. They have a mechanic with CT experience. I purchased a CT in December and they did the condition inspection, including the wing pull.

I am training with Iowa flight training. I asked about there mechanic who works on their remaining ct after you bought the other one. This is what I was told.

We have a mechanic that technically works for IFT however it's a weird situation. There's some airport policy that doesn't allow him to work on anyone's planes but ours since he himself has an aircraft based on the field. I'm not sure the logic just know he can't do yours for that reason. 

I bought the plane last summer from a training school in Colorado Springs. If I had known this was going to happen I would have been able to fly it back there before my annual lapsed.

The airframe has 2840 hours and about 900 hours on current engine.

[rickysmith]

Since I got that email from the mechanic. Fallowed by the reply from my instructor that his mechanic also couldn't help, I was very concerned. I'm glad this forum is here, as I already have all these replies with suggestions.

I have been to sun and fun 3 times but sadly missed this year.I hope to be flying myself there next year.

[Jim Meade]

If the aircraft is still legally flyable, have the inspector sign off on what he can and then fly it to Tom Baker to pull the wings.  If it's not legally flyable, see about getting a ferry permit from the Des Moines FSDO and fly it down to Tom Baker.  Question, Tom, can a condition inspection be split this way - one mechanic doing some parts and another doing the remainder?

You might check to see if there is an A&P at Stanton Field south of Minneapolis, as well.  They used to sell and service CT.  He could drive down in 3-4 hours.

If you get nowhere and the plane's not flyable, let me know and I'll see if one of the mechanics at Jet Air in Iowa City could run up and do the wings part.  No guarantees on that but I could try.  I also know other mechanics in the Iowa City/CR area who maybe could be approached.

If your CT is SLSA, you'll need the 120 hour course which is most often taught by Rainbow Aviation.  If your CT is ELSA you can take the 16 hour course and sign your own condition inspection.  That does not change Tom's advice that you have to have had some kind of training to do the task, but that is usually not that difficult to obtain.

 

 

 

 

[Doug G.]

This was one of the few things that, as an LSRM-A I had not done. The manual provides specific instructions. I gave them to an A&P, paid him to observe what I did. He then signed a paper I had made up saying I had performed the operation satisfactorily.

Incidentally, the manual also says you have to have specific FD training to repair carbon fiber. I had a bubble on my wing that I took my plane to an FD service center since it said you had to be trained by FD. They no longer offer classes. I later found out two things: 1) FDUSA provided detailed info on how to do it. (Having worked with fiberglass it would not have been an issue.) 2) The service center guy had not had any special training from FD!

[GrassStripFlyBoy]

13 hours ago, rickysmith said:

The airframe has 2840 hours

600 hour interval is 2400 then next at 3000, so when was the last inspection completed?

[Tom Baker]

18 hours ago, GrassStripFlyBoy said:

The wing attach inspection is each 600 hour interval, or 2 year (or 3 if flying low amount of hours), so first check if you're at the 600 hour interval or if flown over 100 hours 'after two years of past inspection', this might be an exception your current source is not reading the MM correctly on.  This takes a bit of lawyer reading of terms, its not a hard every 2 years statement... That may allow them to do everything else, sign off the annual, and you're still within the 100 hour window to take it somewhere later just for the wing pull.

Second idea, if the bird is local to the Iowa area, who in the logs was doing past work, perhaps reach out to them.  Or perhaps you were talking general FD familiarity and not this airplane?

 

Per the FAA Light Sport airplane get condition inspections, not annuals or 100 hour inspections. The maintenance manual was written for the German market. I asked the FD engineers why not just have one inspection, the reply was that in Germany they are taxed based on annual inspections, so they broke it down in the manual. Also over there it is not uncommon for an airplane to be in a club that flies more than 100 hours a year. They also chose not to re-write the manual for the US market. 

[rickysmith]

48 minutes ago, GrassStripFlyBoy said:

600 hour interval is 2400 then next at 3000, so when was the last inspection completed?

What I have had to do to use my CFI who is experienced flying Flight Design, I ended up with a 1 hour 20 minute travel each way. So today I don't have access to the log books because last week I dropped them off for the mechanic. I'm gonna need to plan another trip to go and pick the books back up. But from the manganous email he started he was trying to contact flight design. I'm hoping they do reply back to him and I would like the books there should he still need them. So I can't answer for sure when last inspection was done till I decide to make the 3 hour round trip to get the log books, incase I end up needing to take them back again.

 

I believe my issue is simply in this line the mechanic wrote.

We do not have anyone currently that has this training. I have reached out to Flight Design for information on this training and not have heard from them yet. It appears from their web site that this is a 3 week course.

First I do hope flight design does reply to him about his questions. Second I hope the training would not require a 3 week course.

 

[rickysmith]

7 minutes ago, Tom Baker said:

Per the FAA Light Sport airplane get condition inspections, not annuals or 100 hour inspections. The maintenance manual was written for the German market. I asked the FD engineers why not just have one inspection, the reply was that in Germany they are taxed based on annual inspections, so they broke it down in the manual. Also over there it is not uncommon for an airplane to be in a club that flies more than 100 hours a year. They also chose not to re-write the manual for the US market. 

Yes, the annual condition inspection I mention I basically combined the 2 words because I am unsure? I only guessed it was an annual because SLSA may be like a certified. Experimental has condition inspection. If I could understand better if I am needing an annual or a condition inspection this would be helpful.

[Roger Lee]

Any licensed mechanic is allowed to do the inspection from the maintenance manual and does not need any special training. None of us had any special training from FD to do things like the wing inspection. I never had any and I'm a service center. I know of no one personally that has had special training from FD on how to do the wing inspection or any other item in the maintenance manual. The most I've seen is a phone call to them. I have had many mechanics call me on how to do certain things like the wing inspection over the years. I would agree that some  people are far better off to make a call and ask someone that has done it about tips, tricks and anything they may need to be aware of.

Phone calls are easy, cheap and quick and far better than an Oops.

[Tom Baker]

I have had the special Flight Design training, both for the airplane and composite repair. I have the certificate somewhere to prove it.

[Roger Lee]

I can see composite repair because it is more a specialty and that could easily need training to do it correctly and not just a normal inspection like rickeysmith was asking about.

[Jim Meade]

Ricky, why does the mechanic have the log books?  The mechanic can have copies of the log book and can make entries which you can paste into the original log book.  Many will suggest you NEVER let a mechanic have your original logs, only copies.  Mechanics  have been known to hold log books hostage.

[Warmi]

11 minutes ago, Jim Meade said:

Ricky, why does the mechanic have the log books?  The mechanic can have copies of the log book and can make entries which you can paste into the original log book.  Many will suggest you NEVER let a mechanic have your original logs, only copies.  Mechanics  have been known to hold log books hostage.

Ok if I am going to have this sort of “business relationship” with my mechanic I would rather find a new mechanic ...

[Roger Lee]

" Mechanics  have been known to hold log books hostage." This is illegal and the FAA should be called and involved.

I don't know anyone who has ever copied the entire fuselage and engine logbooks and no one has ever brought something like that to an inspection. Plus it's illegal for a mechanic to refuse to return the logbooks. Then it's time to involve the FAA against the mechanic. Why would a mechanic do that? If an owner owed him money it only takes a few minutes online and $5 to file a mechanic's lien on the plane.

I always ask the owner to bring their books. I get to see what someone either did or didn't do and see what has been done over time. It helps me see what I may need to do to fix or bring up to date what someone else failed to do which unfortunately is quite often when A&P's do the work and have never been to a Rotax class or has never worked on that type of aircraft. Many mechanic's don't even know that they can't just change things at will on SLSA. A&P's tend to want to treat a CT like it has a Continental or Lycoming engine, fail to look at the maint. checklist, fail to look for SB's and treat the overall plane like it's a Cessna annual and then fail to use the proper language in the logbook. I type out all logbook entries for annuals and stick them in the books because several times owners have failed to put them in. I prefer a totally complete inspection from start to finish. This way the owner and I are far better protected from legal woes if they should arise.

[Tom Baker]

Roger you can complain about A&P mechanics all you want, but they are not always the issue. I have seen some pretty shoddy firewall forward work from LSRM who were not familiar with the CT. I have seen some fairly poor work from someone who should know CT's inside and out. Some of the biggest problems I have seen on a CT was not from an A&P mechanic, but a repair station with a long history of working on ultralight aircraft. This was the same fellow who told me you couldn't do a hose change on a CT for less than $5000. He changed the stainless fuel line that goes to the carburetor because he had never seen one on an airplane before. Didn't bother to check the Rotax parts book to see that it was OEM. 

[Jim Meade]

Yeah, yeah, get the FAA involved.  In the meantime, you're grounded.  It's better to prevent the problem than have to solve it.

Take photos of or scan the log book pages.  Put them on the phone, tablet or a memory stick.  Easy to do and done all the time.  Print them out if you decide it's necessary.  Or get a different mechanic.

It's common for CFIs to write an endorsement or logbook entry on a sticky, not harder for a mechanic to do so.

In addition, what happens when you're cross country and have a problem away from your log books?  Surely no one flies with the logs!  But one can have a digital file in the phone or tablet or on a stick and have it at hand.  

I'm not persuaded at all that the mechanic gets my log books.  In addition, if you contract with the mechanic for an annual condition inspection, spark plug change, fuel filter change or you name it, why is the mechanic taking time on your nickel to go back over the log book to see what, if anything, he thinks someone else missed and that he can charge you for?  Is that part of what you contracted for?  No.  You wanted a plug change or oil change or whatever and unless there is an obvious problem the mechanic needs to bring to your attention, there is no reason to do a search of your log book.  Some data needs to be provided and that can be in the form of copies of the pertinent information.  All the mechanic is signing off is that he conducted the oil change according to correct procedures, not that the entire log is accurate since day one.

 

 

[Jim Meade]

12 hours ago, Warmi said:

Ok if I am going to have this sort of “business relationship” with my mechanic I would rather find a new mechanic ...

What kind of relationship do you want?  He's not going to marry your sister.  Of course you want a businesslike relationship. 

[Warmi]

You missed the point but whatever ....

[Roger Lee]

Tom : "I have seen some pretty shoddy firewall forward work from LSRM who were not familiar with the CT. "

Agree

[Tom Baker]

4 hours ago, Jim Meade said:

Yeah, yeah, get the FAA involved.  In the meantime, you're grounded.  It's better to prevent the problem than have to solve it.

Take photos of or scan the log book pages.  Put them on the phone, tablet or a memory stick.  Easy to do and done all the time.  Print them out if you decide it's necessary.  Or get a different mechanic.

It's common for CFIs to write an endorsement or logbook entry on a sticky, not harder for a mechanic to do so.

In addition, what happens when you're cross country and have a problem away from your log books?  Surely no one flies with the logs!  But one can have a digital file in the phone or tablet or on a stick and have it at hand.  

I'm not persuaded at all that the mechanic gets my log books.  In addition, if you contract with the mechanic for an annual condition inspection, spark plug change, fuel filter change or you name it, why is the mechanic taking time on your nickel to go back over the log book to see what, if anything, he thinks someone else missed and that he can charge you for?  Is that part of what you contracted for?  No.  You wanted a plug change or oil change or whatever and unless there is an obvious problem the mechanic needs to bring to your attention, there is no reason to do a search of your log book.  Some data needs to be provided and that can be in the form of copies of the pertinent information.  All the mechanic is signing off is that he conducted the oil change according to correct procedures, not that the entire log is accurate since day one.

 

 

Jim, as a mechanic who works on airplanes I want to see every single piece of documentation that comes with an airplane. What I don't want to see is just the three individual logbooks. making a digital copy of everything for a CT might not be that bad, but for some aircraft it would be a daunting task. On two airplanes recently I had to go through the complete logbooks from day one counting 100 hour inspections, and verifying that annual inspections were not signed off closer than nine moths apart for an airworthiness directive. How would you like to scan every page from the mid seventies until now, or something that is even older. If you do provide a digital copy it needs to be very well organized, or it is worthless. Another case I was ask about recently was about a old repair where they replaced the spar. It was written in the logbook, but no 337. Well come to find out there was a copy of the work order from the repair station, and it was a repair approved in the MM, so no 337 needed. The only way to figure that out  was with the complete records for the airplane.