Animosity2k Posted November 8, 2021 Report Share Posted November 8, 2021 Planning to order an F2 shortly and have some questions on some of the upgrade options. Since all I've ever known is Dynon I am curious as if the upgrade to the Garmi GTN 650XI or 750XI is worth the respective $16,220 and $23,365 price tag vs the standard G3X avionics suite. $220k is a lot as is but by the time I add those upgrades I'm close to $260k on a plane I plan to fly 75 hours a year, so I'm just trying to be mindful of extras. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
okent Posted November 8, 2021 Report Share Posted November 8, 2021 The G3X will do all of your VFR navigation/autopilot so if you don't need to do IFR training in the plane then I wouldn't spend the money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Animosity2k Posted November 8, 2021 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2021 I'd love to learn to fly IFR (even though I'll always be a sport pilot) I think it would be benefical to understand and in the case of a VFR to IMC situation having the heated Pitot and the instrument tools available could always be a huge added safety benefit...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Animosity2k Posted November 8, 2021 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2021 The only MUST haves I so far found were the Heated Pitot & the Cold Weather Thermostat for the Rotax (I assume this is similar to a Reiff or Tanis) for cold weather starting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted November 8, 2021 Report Share Posted November 8, 2021 If your big worry is accidentally flying into IMC, the basic avionics suite will still work fine. ATC will not clear you for any approaches unless it's an emergency, and you request it. What they will do is try to get you to VFR conditions, be it climb, descend, etc, which is more than capable for basic instruments. Approaches by non-certificated pilots or aircraft without the approved equipment is a last resort only, because it is extremely, extremely dangerous, to you and everyone in the area below. And they *will* ask you those questions so they know what they are going to be dealing with. Your parachute is your bail out if you end up in such a situation where it's your last resort. That said, if you're doing your preflight and staying away from marginal conditions, you won't have to use your last resort. I would not recommend a heavy duty avionics suite to anyone who isn't actually going to fly IFR or use said aircraft to maintain currency. It's a lot of extra expense, and a lot of extra things to maintain. That all translates to more headaches. Save those dollars for fuel and hamburgers; a nav radio is all you need for a good part of your training, rent an aircraft for practicing GPS approaches and DME arcs, and the test. Take it from someone who used their flight design for practice for the instrument test. I only have a NAV and I chose not to try to do an instrument checkride with a single nav, that's testing suicide. I DID use it for my commercial checkride; they're hard aircraft. Single pilot instrument is intense, difficult, and the last thing you need is an airplane that adds even more stress during your test. The light wing loading means they get pushed around extremely easy, while their sensitive handling pushes for an extremely fine touch. Instrument is all about precision and small, tiny adjustments. On the other hand, if you are crazy like me, they also make GREAT challenges if you really want to test your mettle. In that case disregard everything I said and have at it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Animosity2k Posted November 9, 2021 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2021 19 hours ago, Anticept said: If your big worry is accidentally flying into IMC, the basic avionics suite will still work fine. ATC will not clear you for any approaches unless it's an emergency, and you request it. What they will do is try to get you to VFR conditions, be it climb, descend, etc, which is more than capable for basic instruments. Approaches by non-certificated pilots or aircraft without the approved equipment is a last resort only, because it is extremely, extremely dangerous, to you and everyone in the area below. And they *will* ask you those questions so they know what they are going to be dealing with. Your parachute is your bail out if you end up in such a situation where it's your last resort. That said, if you're doing your preflight and staying away from marginal conditions, you won't have to use your last resort. I would not recommend a heavy duty avionics suite to anyone who isn't actually going to fly IFR or use said aircraft to maintain currency. It's a lot of extra expense, and a lot of extra things to maintain. That all translates to more headaches. Save those dollars for fuel and hamburgers; a nav radio is all you need for a good part of your training, rent an aircraft for practicing GPS approaches and DME arcs, and the test. Take it from someone who used their flight design for practice for the instrument test. I only have a NAV and I chose not to try to do an instrument checkride with a single nav, that's testing suicide. I DID use it for my commercial checkride; they're hard aircraft. Single pilot instrument is intense, difficult, and the last thing you need is an airplane that adds even more stress during your test. The light wing loading means they get pushed around extremely easy, while their sensitive handling pushes for an extremely fine touch. Instrument is all about precision and small, tiny adjustments. On the other hand, if you are crazy like me, they also make GREAT challenges if you really want to test your mettle. In that case disregard everything I said and have at it! He does such a good job talking you out of it, until he doesn't Thanks Corey! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted November 9, 2021 Report Share Posted November 9, 2021 It's all about really understanding your mission! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted November 10, 2021 Report Share Posted November 10, 2021 Oh hey, I should add onto this: if you DO want to do GPS approaches and use said GPS as a substitute for ADF/DME* requirements, or test with it, it does have to be a permanently installed TSO'd WAAS GPS to cover all regs. * Yes, some approaches still require an ADF. ILS 9R into KOSU does, for example. As does the KTZR ILS. As said, WAAS GPS can be substituted for ADF**. ** As long as you aren't relying on GPS for both your primary AND alternate airport, which is not allowed. Additional stuff: Regardless of any IMC restrictions, an aircraft is still allowed to fly on IFR flight plans, train, and test, as long as they meet the equipment requirements for IFR flight in 91. They just are required to deviate or cancel IFR before they break any VMC rules. Same idea with aircraft not approved for icing conditions... deviate or cancel as needed, but do not break that limitation! See 8700.1 Volume 2, chapter 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted November 10, 2021 Report Share Posted November 10, 2021 Heated pitot not required to fly IMC. Good idea, but not mandatory for part 91. Oil thermostat is for so oil will warm up quickly. It is not at all like an engine heater. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Animosity2k Posted November 11, 2021 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2021 On 11/10/2021 at 12:29 PM, Jim Meade said: Heated pitot not required to fly IMC. Good idea, but not mandatory for part 91. Oil thermostat is for so oil will warm up quickly. It is not at all like an engine heater. Jim, isn't that the exact purpose behind the Reiff and Tanis, that they pre-heat the engine oil? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted November 11, 2021 Report Share Posted November 11, 2021 Reiff and Tanis warm the oil when the engine is not running, so it is warm when you get ready to go. Intended for unheated hangars and outside stays while traveling. It requires an electrical outlet to plug into. The oil thermostat controls the flow of oil through the oil cooler so that it warms quicker when the engine is running. The less oil that passes through the cooler the quicker it gets warm. As the engine warms up it allows more oil to flow through the cooler. It also helps keep the oil at proper operating temperature while in flight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Animosity2k Posted November 11, 2021 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2021 2 hours ago, Tom Baker said: Reiff and Tanis warm the oil when the engine is not running, so it is warm when you get ready to go. Intended for unheated hangars and outside stays while traveling. It requires an electrical outlet to plug into. The oil thermostat controls the flow of oil through the oil cooler so that it warms quicker when the engine is running. The less oil that passes through the cooler the quicker it gets warm. As the engine warms up it allows more oil to flow through the cooler. It also helps keep the oil at proper operating temperature while in flight. Tom, as someone that lives in Northeast Ohio and stores his plane in an unheated hangar do you recommend both? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted November 11, 2021 Report Share Posted November 11, 2021 Yes, definitely both! My recommendation would be the Tanis for the pre heater. That will probably be an add on after you get the airplane, but you might be able to have them install it before delivery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted November 12, 2021 Report Share Posted November 12, 2021 I honestly wouldn't own a rotax without an oil thermostat unless I lived in Florida or other very south state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted November 12, 2021 Report Share Posted November 12, 2021 I took my oil thermostat off. Oil temps dropped measurably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted November 12, 2021 Report Share Posted November 12, 2021 I fly during the winter a lot so it's pretty important to me. Only in the really really hot days does it get into the yellow for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Animosity2k Posted November 12, 2021 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2021 2 hours ago, Anticept said: I fly during the winter a lot so it's pretty important to me. Only in the really really hot days does it get into the yellow for me. So your an hour from me, and probably get the same exact weather. I thought the thermostat was beneficial for us, but you mentioned earlier taking it off? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted November 12, 2021 Report Share Posted November 12, 2021 No i have never removed it. The alternative is to go without a thermostat and put tape on the radiator during the cold. It's fine if you fly locally, but if you fly long distance, you have to be careful especially when you fly into warmer conditions. You will have to land to remove it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warmi Posted November 12, 2021 Report Share Posted November 12, 2021 I do have a thermostat and still have to put tape when it gets real cold ( say below 25F or so ) otherwise I can’t get the oil up to suggested 180F even during sustained climbs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted November 12, 2021 Report Share Posted November 12, 2021 Which thermostat? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warmi Posted November 12, 2021 Report Share Posted November 12, 2021 This one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted November 12, 2021 Report Share Posted November 12, 2021 Got it. Don't know anything about them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted November 12, 2021 Report Share Posted November 12, 2021 1 hour ago, Anticept said: Got it. Don't know anything about them. That is the standard one Flight Design used on the LS, and I have also seen them installed on SW's. The picture is just taken at a different angle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted November 13, 2021 Report Share Posted November 13, 2021 At my PC now and it's obvious! Looks very different on my small phone screen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted November 13, 2021 Report Share Posted November 13, 2021 Perma Cool thermostat. I'm not a fan of the oil and coolant thermostats. They're just in the way for the little they do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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