Transition Training Needed

[Jim Meade]

I like what the FAA says.  Airplane Flying Handbook, page 9-8.  They acknowledge that flare is a synonymous term for round out - I use flare.  In a CTSW, I start the flare only a few feet above the ground, not 10-20 feet, and let it drift down slowly to a foot or less above the ground.  Then back pressure is exerted slowly and only enough to level off.  After that, back pressure is added only as the airplane sinks beneath one.  Many people have a tendency to add too much back pressure too quickly and balloon.  It is easy to over do it.  It's better to think of arresting the descent rather than raising the nose, although of course the nose is somewhat elevated at touchdown.

My disagreement with Roger is his persistence in advocating a fast, even power-on landing.

Round Out (Flare) The round out is a slow, smooth transition from a normal approach attitude to a landing attitude, gradually rounding out the flightpath to one that is parallel to and a few inches above the runway. When the airplane approaches 10 to 20 feet above the ground in a normal descent, the round out or flare is started. Back-elevator pressure is gradually applied to slowly increase the pitch attitude and AOA. [Figure 9-10] The AOA is increased at a rate that allows the airplane to continue settling slowly as forward speed decreases. This is a continuous process until the airplane touches down on the ground. Figure 9-10. Changing angle of attack during round out. When the AOA is increased, the lift is momentarily increased and this decreases the rate of descent. Since power normally is reduced to idle during the round out, the airspeed also gradually decreases. This causes lift to decrease again and necessitates raising the nose and further increasing the AOA. During the round out, the airspeed is decreased to touchdown speed while the lift is controlled so the airplane settles gently onto the landing surface. The round out is executed at a rate such that the proper landing attitude and the proper touchdown airspeed are attained simultaneously just as the wheels contact the landing surface. The rate at which the round out is executed depends on the airplane’s height above the ground, the rate of descent, and the pitch attitude. A round out started excessively high needs to be executed more slowly than one started from a lower height. The round out rate should also be proportional to the rate of closure with the ground. When the airplane appears to be descending very slowly, the increase in pitch attitude should be made at a correspondingly slow rate. The pitch attitude of the airplane in a full-flap approach is considerably lower than in a no-flap approach. To attain the proper landing attitude before touching down, the nose needs to travel through a greater pitch change when flaps are fully extended. Since the round out is usually started at approximately the same height above the ground regardless of the degree of flaps used, the pitch attitude should be increased at a faster rate when full flaps are used. However, the round out should still be executed at a rate that takes the airplane’s downward motion into account.

[Mike Koerner]

I tried to land with a touch of power once. Remember I have a longer wing than most of you and my prop was set pretty course at the time (before they told us we shouldn't do that). Anyway, with about 500 feet of runway left I decided I better go-around.

The tower controller was a bit irritated. I had been cleared to land. This was at Camarillo, a busy airport with a 7,700 foot runway.

I think I could've gotten it down in a couple more miles. 

[Roger Lee]

9 hours ago, Mike Koerner said:

I tried to land with a touch of power once. Remember I have a longer wing than most of you and my prop was set pretty course at the time (before they told us we shouldn't do that). Anyway, with about 500 feet of runway left I decided I better go-around.

The tower controller was a bit irritated. I had been cleared to land. This was at Camarillo, a busy airport with a 7,700 foot runway.

I think I could've gotten it down in a couple more miles. 

What this tells me is you should have rounded out before the runway entry and you left a lot of runway behind you and or didn't have the stick back far enough because the stick controls the speed. There is no way a CT2K would fly 7700' at 2800 rpm with the stick far enough back to stall it. No speed the plane lands. I have crossed the numbers at 100 knts. and still have no issue on landing. I have taken CFI's up and round out before the asphalt and made landings dead on the numbers with the CFI whining about I round out too soon before the asphalt and they thought we wouldn't make it, but that just demonstrated that they didn't know the aircraft, glide ratio and good pilot knowledge on that particular aircraft handling.

[Duane Jefts]

17 hours ago, Roger Lee said:

I agree.

 

p.s.

Aren't you supposed to be cutting the grass?  

I am so tired of cutting the grass, fallen down trees, weed wacking, spraying etc... Did you get my message on the pitot covers for the CT and cessna when convenient?

[FlyingMonkey]

16 hours ago, Jim Meade said:

My disagreement with Roger is his persistence in advocating a fast, even power-on landing.

Personally, i don't think there is anything inherently wrong with landing power on, it's more to me about where you are in speed and where you sit on the power curve.  You can save a balloon by adding a touch of power and letting the airplane settle down, that is a power-on landing.  Likewise you can control your descent rate with power on final with the speed quite low, which is useful for doing minimum speed landings over trees into short runways at 46kt or so.

"Power on" doesn't have to mean fast.

[Roger Lee]

I agree power on doesn't mean fast. The stick controls the speed. You can be on final and touch at the same speeds with idle  or power in rpm and all it takes is an adjustment in the stick position. Power on landings just like power off are part of aviation. Many do it both ways and I did too depending on the circumstances. Power on landings can save people from dropping in. It isn't an absolute, but helps many. It's a good way to transition people learning to land a CT or other light and clean aircraft. Then you need to learn always, Power off in all flaps, power on in all flaps and I even do full power off glide in landings. I have tried in my aviation career to learn everything and not get stuck and held back by the word traditional. I have learned all these things because I started in Ultralights in 1980 (self taught), then Gyros (self taught), then helicopters, then tail draggers and now back to just fixed wing.

Learning different techniques helps solve and keeps you out of many problems.

[Madhatter]

The new F2 solved the dropout issue so now you can have it both ways. This according to my conversation with FD, the aircraft was wind tunnel analyzed.