Stuart Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 The flap board in our club's CTLS has started clicking in the center console. Everything still seems to work as it should but the relays click in 0 and 15 degree position. We've replaced this board before and it very expensive. Over $900 if memory serves. I'd really like to avoid that if possible. Has any successfully dealt with this issue? Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 Hi Stuart, Not sure what is causing the clicking unless the switch is becoming loose on the back of the panel. Pull the panel and check the switch as you turn it. I think new boards are up to around $1100+. I haven't purchased one for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 New boards are $1,300. I can help with diagnostics if you can provide a video feed. PM me if you want alternatives, I've already talked to FD USA about using dynon equipment to monitor flap positions and a manual position switch in the cockpit. They like the idea, but they said Germany won't even bother with engineering unless it's practically handed to them on a platter (which I can do). It's still not going to be cheap to convert, but for $1,300 for a replacement to get rid of those troublesome boards, it might be worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Posted August 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 The sound is definitely a relay clicking. Dave A. at FD suggested a minor adjustment to a pot on the board but it didn't make a difference. Matt told me something over $900 for the board. Ours is a 2008 model so there may be a difference. Anticept, I'm interested in alternatives but the club isn't flush with cash. This is the plane that's suffered through some rough handling by student pilots. You've read about it in other forum posts. They would be interested but would probably want wait for the board to fail. I'll get a video next time I'm at the hanger and attach it to this thread. Thanks for the help gentlemen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 Check your PMs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chanik Posted August 19, 2014 Report Share Posted August 19, 2014 Send me a couple pictures of the board with and relay details shown. Almost certainly these boards can be reworked. If anyone has some failed ones they can send me, I'll take a look at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runtoeat Posted August 20, 2014 Report Share Posted August 20, 2014 Kurt, thanks for this offer. Sure will save someone a lot of $$'s if it's just a bad relay or loose selector switch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chanik Posted August 20, 2014 Report Share Posted August 20, 2014 Under inductive loads, relays can fail in just a few thousand activations especially if the flaps are binding somewhat so the current is higher. I figure Roger or Jeremy might have a few dead ones by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Posted August 30, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2014 I finally got out to the airport to get a short video of behavior. You can easily hear the clicking. Also, you can see that it's limited to clicking in the zero degree position. The video is mp4 and can't be attached. It is shared via Google Drive here... https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFU43Dani3BbVM5YTU4TFZ4clk/edit?usp=sharing Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted August 30, 2014 Report Share Posted August 30, 2014 That sure sounds like a relay clicking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted August 30, 2014 Report Share Posted August 30, 2014 I finally got out to the airport to get a short video of behavior. You can easily hear the clicking. Also, you can see that it's limited to clicking in the zero degree position. The video is mp4 and can't be attached. It is shared via Google Drive here... https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFU43Dani3BbVM5YTU4TFZ4clk/edit?usp=sharing Stuart That's not a relay problem, that's a sensing problem. The board thinks it isn't able to hold the 0 position and is constantly trying to seek 0. Reprogram the 0 position and it might go away (you have the new flap board style by the way, where the relays are on the controller). If it doesn't, then you likely have a deadzone on the potentiometer and need to replace it. The worst case is the microchip or some other component other than the relays have gone bad on the board, but that is unlikely. I say it isn't a relay problem because there are only two relays on either style of the controllers (one for up, one for down). If it was a relay problem, you would find it difficult to move the flaps in one or both directions, and the clicking would exist on all settings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Posted August 30, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2014 Why only when he goes from non zero to zero? Do the flaps move at all? Do they return to zero and make the noise? The flaps operate normally. There is no sing of anything wrong except for the clicking. . That's not a relay problem, that's a sensing problem. The board thinks it isn't able to hold the 0 position and is constantly trying to seek 0. Reprogram the 0 position and it might go away (you have the new flap board style by the way, where the relays are on the controller). If it doesn't, then you likely have a deadzone on the potentiometer and need to replace it. The worst case is the microchip or some other component other than the relays have gone bad. Sounds encouraging! I'll take a look at reprogramming the 0 position in the next few days and let you all know how it goes. Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Posted August 31, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2014 I looked over the procedure in the manual about programming the flaps. Are the switches mentioned for programming already on the board or do I have to get them separately? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted September 1, 2014 Report Share Posted September 1, 2014 You should have gotten these two switches with the plane and they are not connected. If you don't have them you can get them from FD or just make a set. Then they just plug onto the back of the flap board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Posted September 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2014 You should have gotten these two switches with the plane and they are not connected. If you don't have them you can get them from FD or just make a set. Then they just plug onto the back of the flap board. Great. I'll take a look through thing at the hanger. We probably have them then. I'll send another update once we've reset the zero position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Posted October 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2014 We finally took the opportunity to try resetting the zero point on our flaps yesterday. It looks like the instructions in the maintenance manual may not be complete. We connected the switches to the board but whenever we try to move the flaps with switch 2 they simply return to the set position as soon as we release the switch. It seems like there must be a "programming mode" that I havent found how to turn on. Does anyone know how to do this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted October 11, 2014 Report Share Posted October 11, 2014 Hi Stuart, Too long or hard to explain here. Give me a call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted October 11, 2014 Report Share Posted October 11, 2014 You definately want to be walked through on the phone. FD's english maintenance manuals are not being kept up very well with parts changes, and this is one of them that tends to be a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Posted October 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2014 Thanks to Roger Lee for spending some time on the phone today trying to talk me through re-calibrating our flap positions. We weren't able to get our board in to the programming mode. We seem to have a configuration that's some how different from normal. I've posted some photos to show our flap board. Maybe the pictures will help solve the mystery... The file se are the connectors I have to connect the adjustment switches. Three wires are for the rocker switch and clearly marked but SW1 and SW2 are marked but not sure how they're used... Roger had me looking for a connector behind the board. Never could find one. Here are two views of the edge of our board. Maybe you can see a connector that I've missed... See anything I missed Roger? Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted October 13, 2014 Report Share Posted October 13, 2014 The connector on your board has a cover on it, probably to prevent inadvertent shorting. It is smack in the center of your second and third photo, and has that pasty glue on it to help hold it down. It's the row of pins covered by the segmented black cover, right side of the board when looking at the back of the board with the rotary switch's solder points at the bottom. You have the new style programming board, and thus it is programmed differently. I'm sure roger has the new instructions though, as it's not like it came out yesterday (it's ~2011, maybe '12 that the new model came out). I too have the instructions for the new board system, if they are needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Posted October 24, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2014 I got the instructions from Flight Design and we did the re-calibration yesterday. Unfortunately, no change. It's still always clicking in the zero position and a few clicks in 30 then they stop. By the way, while the relays are clicking we never hear the flap motor energize. There is no motion of the flaps while the relays are clicking. Next step? Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted October 24, 2014 Report Share Posted October 24, 2014 It probably doesn't have time to start moving if it is switching rapidly. Try calibrating 0 and 30 flaps to the stops, and set 15 to what should be 0. Then run through them. The idea is to see if the same behavior is exhibited because of flap setting (board failure), or physical flap position (potentiometer failure). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted February 21, 2015 Report Share Posted February 21, 2015 Stuart, did you solve this problem? I ask because I have exactly the same - relay clicking away on the zero position suddenly started doing it Tuesday this week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted February 21, 2015 Report Share Posted February 21, 2015 I know you are talking about the flap board clicking, but I hope everyone lubes the two flap rods back in the luggage compartment every annual. These get dry and cause dry metal to metal rubbing which in turn puts undue stress on the flap mechanism and causes noises, slows deployment and could burn out a servo motor. Lubing these rods can keep some of your problems at bay. Ian, It is possible that some of this noise is being caused if they rods are dry. This is any easy check to help rule out any causes. Try lubing those rods with some silicone. Once lubed from both sides run the flaps full up and down. If it takes care of the problem your done if not at least this is ruled out and you can move on to the next check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runtoeat Posted February 21, 2015 Report Share Posted February 21, 2015 Roger, we've been thru this before regarding lubing parts. You recommended Inox and I've been using this on my CT. Is the silicone lube you talk about here a "grease" or the regular liquid silicone spray? I hesitate to use spray silicone on anything due to the problems one has with painting surfaces that have been contaminated with the silicone over spray. How about using Inox on the flap rods? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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