Flaps Failed

[procharger]

[procharger]

rig up momentary switch off 12 battery direct to the motor bypasses all the junk

FD put in to make the flaps move that will tell you what you got.

[Towner]

2 hours ago, FlyingMonkey said:

Hmm, so the relay board *and* the controller board both would get replaced?  I bet that is a pricey option.  I have a pretty good electronics guy, I'd let him try to repair the relay board first. 

BTW, why did FD put hard-as-rock sealant over the screws the hold the wires to the board?  So annoying to get that sh*t out while contorting yourself inside the panel.

Yes, both get replaced and become one board. They made it sound like it would take some work for an electrical novice like me, but not so much for a guy who has an electrical background, so might not be bad for your buddy.

It was just a few months ago when I spoke with them, but I don’t remember the price.

[Towner]

9 minutes ago, procharger said:

rig up momentary switch off 12 battery direct to the motor bypasses all the junk

FD put in to make the flaps move that will tell you what you got.

Mine work fine in manual mode, but I would be very interested in how you made the position indicator!

[procharger]

It's a trim cable off older model jet ski that is how they did it way back when, I made the little

pin on lathe out of brass and glued it to end of the trim cable think I have a pic of it I will look, cable from

ebay.

[procharger]

It does have outer casing like motorcycle cable.

[procharger]

94 Arctic Cat Barracuda Tigershark Jet Ski Tilt Trim Cable 93 95 ? PWC

andreefam

• (8355)

• 100% positive
• Seller's other itemsSeller's other items
• Contact seller

US $59.99    something like this should be able to make it work

[procharger]

https://www.bing.com/aclk?ld=e8fqVb3MMth71iOBiVW0wLBjVUCUzUbH6hJ-1waXBHaJI7P7q8wBowbzL9CkF39xjaDn_5FC2U-QCIODrvhnRiarMtiZHdSiy2uQN5NfbJk-OZW9omgfggfyFmBdo0vrmNc8OrbOA3HX_gtebx-vm86MDvpNR9HP6fzQnfoCLeEvBkKpnvQvSpwvjKLCp3OsVVyKjSrg&u=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&rlid=2fec70d80b8f1b53948816a8c3c002c3&ntb=1&ntb=1

[procharger]

Made a couple of clamps to mount both ends easy to do. Hose clamp will work on the 

cylinder end or anything you can think of.

[Towner]

1 hour ago, procharger said:

Made a couple of clamps to mount both ends easy to do. Hose clamp will work on the 

cylinder end or anything you can think of.

Thanks for the info! And the pics!

[FlyingMonkey]

I'll be doing some more troubleshooting tomorrow morning, I'll let ya'll know what I find. 

There's nothing wrong with the setup Procharger posted, but personally I'd like to keep the flaps system as close to factory as possible, I think if I were to ever sell it having a homebrew flaps arrangement might make that harder.

[procharger]

I plan on fixing it one day my flaps still worked but not all the time without working the switch

back and forth, this is a back up for if they quit working all together, now I know my motor is not

the problem, which board is bad I do not know. Right now the momentary works just fine, been 

using it for couple months now. Can switch back anytime. Could not get the board off firewall 

because screws  or nuts were spinning  in hole, I am going to replace the engine at some point

I will then figure out what is going on, I have new engine in hanger. 50 dollar cable and 15 dollar switch

works just fine right now. No plans to sell plane maybe a used engine when it comes off.

 

 

 

[Towner]

Mine works great in manual mode, just need a position indicator. And yes, I’m very conservative with flap positions and speeds so I don’t over speed the flaps.

I do plan on fixing mine to…

[Anticept]

On 6/13/2024 at 10:04 PM, Tom Baker said:

Putting a meter on the terminals does not verify current, it verifies voltage. It is possible to have voltage without enough current to operate the motor. This would be due to a poor connection/relay/ or such up stream from the flap motor.

 

This is actually not possible. It would break Ohm's law. If a given voltage cannot deliver the full current to a load, then the ohm's law variant E = I x R would be violated. The voltage must drop if current does, or resistance must increase. But it's also a bit more complicated as there's curveballs.

Most commonly a reduced voltage is caused by:

• another load in the system (poor connection for example)
• Your power source is of poor quality and is also dropping voltage internally or not providing enough voltage to begin with
• your load is drawing significantly more current than the circuit is designed to handle, which in the case of motors might be an internal short

With these issues, by one of the properties of series circuits: The total resistance of a series circuit is equal to the sum of individual resistances, this will raise the total resistance of the circuit, and drop the available current. But this isn't the only issue. ALSO by the properties of series circuits: Voltage applied to a series circuit is equal to the sum of the individual voltage drops and The voltage drop across a resistor in a series circuit is directly proportional to the size of the resistor (load). When you combine these two... all loads take a slice of the total circuit voltage ON TOP OF reduced total current flow. Two light bulbs in a row of equal resistance will not only double the resistance of just one bulb, but also split the voltage between them. A poor connection with a resistance equal to the motor will halve the voltage at the motor as well, decreasing the total power (E x I) that the motor can utilize.

What Andy is proposing is called a voltage drop test and is completely valid, but it's complex to perform properly as it not only requires measuring the power delivered to the spade connectors, but it requires the motor to be operating UNDER LOAD (flight conditions) as many poor connections will only rear their ugly head when enough amperage is pumped through them (such resistances might not be significant enough unless there is considerable power draw), AND sampling power at the source too, AND a pinch of math to calculate if it's reasonable.

If he sees source voltage on the spade connectors while its moving under load, the motor is likely bad. There should normally be a little voltage drop somewhere just from wiring and connections, and a bad motor means it's not dropping anything. If he sees more than a volt difference between source and load (depends on the circuit design if this is acceptable or not, as things like wire length and diameter play a role), then there's something in the circuit that is wrong or the motor is internally shorting and drawing an extreme amount of power.

There's also another voltage drop test too: hooking voltmeters between positive battery and positive spade at the motor, and another voltmeter between negative battery and negative spade terminal. This tests if the conductors and contacts between the source and the motor are bad and is a little bit easier to carry out, but it still requires operating loads. The voltage will *rise* on one of the voltmeters if there is a problem. As close to 0 as reasonably possible is desired with this type of voltage drop test but does still require circuit knowledge to determine acceptable drop.

[Anticept]

On 6/15/2024 at 7:52 AM, FlyingMonkey said:

I believe so. I forgot about that component of the system.  Any advice?

Following up.

Take it off the firewall. Look at the back of it. It's probably a cracked solder joint or two. Look very closely.

[FlyingMonkey]

On 6/19/2024 at 2:47 AM, Anticept said:

Following up.

Take it off the firewall. Look at the back of it. It's probably a cracked solder joint or two. Look very closely.

Thanks.  I pulled all the wires and re-tightened them.  I'll pull the board if that doesn't do it.  If there is a cracked joint it's gotta be super subtle, just touching the wire made the flaps work when they were totally failed, hardly enough to even disturb the board.  But it's certainly possible and that's my next step. 

Thanks again, great info and help from everyone.

[FredG]

Andy, my flaps were intermittent for a while before I removed the board.  The failed solder connection was subtle and sometimes it made contact and sometimes it didn't.  Not saying that is what is happening with yours, but it doesn't take much to make the intermittent connection close and then open again.

[FlyingMonkey]

15 hours ago, FredG said:

Andy, my flaps were intermittent for a while before I removed the board.  The failed solder connection was subtle and sometimes it made contact and sometimes it didn't.  Not saying that is what is happening with yours, but it doesn't take much to make the intermittent connection close and then open again.

It's definitely acting like an intermittent connection.  If it's not a wire connection it is most likely a solder joint.  I'm going to do some test flying this evening, I'll bring a magnifier out with me and plan to pull an inspect the board if it acts up at all today or over the weekend.  I might get a chance to practice my marginal solder skills! 

Thanks.

[FredG]

If you find a failed solder connection on the back of the board, use some acetone or lacquer thinner to wipe the coating applied by the factory from that spot.  Then solder.  All I did was touch the clean and tinned tip of the soldering iron to the failed connection and allowed the solder to melt and re-flow.  I did not add more solder.  Then apply some kind of paint or coating to insulate the newly soldered connection from physical contact with any conductors.

[Tom Baker]

14 minutes ago, FredG said:

 Then apply some kind of paint or coating to insulate the newly soldered connection from physical contact with any conductors.

A little clear enamel fingernail polish would work great for this. Of course you can use hot pink instead, if you want.

[Towner]

4 hours ago, FlyingMonkey said:

It's definitely acting like an intermittent connection.  If it's not a wire connection it is most likely a solder joint.  I'm going to do some test flying this evening, I'll bring a magnifier out with me and plan to pull an inspect the board if it acts up at all today or over the weekend.  I might get a chance to practice my marginal solder skills! 

Thanks.

Somewhere on the forum are pictures of the bad solder joints. Since dealing with circuit boards was completely new to me, it really helped me know what to look for. I’m sure most of you guys have a lot more experience in this area, but just in case, the pictures can help.

[FlyingMonkey]

3 hours ago, Tom Baker said:

A little clear enamel fingernail polish would work great for this. Of course you can use hot pink instead, if you want.

I'm definitely using hot pink.

[FlyingMonkey]

1 hour ago, Towner said:

Somewhere on the forum are pictures of the bad solder joints. Since dealing with circuit boards was completely new to me, it really helped me know what to look for. I’m sure most of you guys have a lot more experience in this area, but just in case, the pictures can help.

I was wondering if additional solder is needed or just applying heat from the iron.  Thanks for the clarification. 

[Towner]

2 hours ago, FlyingMonkey said:

I was wondering if additional solder is needed or just applying heat from the iron.  Thanks for the clarification. 

Fred posted above that he did not use additional solder. I think in a prior post, someone else stated they did use additional solder. I don’t have a clue what my buddy did, so I’m no help.

[Madhatter]

Be careful using a generic soldering iron. It can overheat the circuit board components easily especially when not using heat sinks. An adjustable heat soldering iron with the proper tip should be used (like in all avionics shops). You may have to remove some old solder so you don't overload it. The new solder with flux done right will eliminate a cold solder joint, and that's maybe why it failed in the first place.